Author Topic: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange  (Read 112600 times)

Offline o3u

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2013, 04:45:18 AM »
When can i trade?

Do you guys have any intention on decentralizing your stocks?

Colored coins,
mastercoin,
bitshares...

These projects are still young but i believe its important stock issuers such as yourselves should pay close attention to them and participate at least in part to their development/testing. (Just to give back to the community ;)

Offline bunkboy

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2013, 05:21:14 AM »
When can i trade?

Do you guys have any intention on decentralizing your stocks?

Colored coins,
mastercoin,
bitshares...

These projects are still young but i believe its important stock issuers such as yourselves should pay close attention to them and participate at least in part to their development/testing. (Just to give back to the community ;)

completely different stuff.
ciphertrade is "centralized" and takes profits as most businesses in this space do.
distributed "shares" is completely different

Offline MannyEric

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2013, 10:35:23 AM »
Great news!
I personally have one specific question. Will the TOS of the new trading environment include the words "investment game" or similar?

Offline Rannasha

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2013, 11:42:28 AM »
I like what I'm seeing about this new exchange. I am primarily interested in the API, since I developed a fully-featured library for the BTCT/LTC-G API and was working on a useful desktop client when burnside announced he had to pull the plug. So if the CIPHERTRADE API is compatible with the BTCT/LTC-G API that's great.

However, the BTCT/LTC-G API wasn't terribly consistent in some ways, which made it a bit difficult to work with from time to time.

Would there be interest from CIPHERTRADE in a proposal on how the BTCT/LTC-G API could be improved?

Offline CoolShades

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2013, 11:58:01 AM »
Great news!
I personally have one specific question. Will the TOS of the new trading environment include the words "investment game" or similar?

Its written in the original text that it will not be 'a game'

Offline MannyEric

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2013, 12:05:33 PM »


Its written in the original text that it will not be 'a game'

Thanks CoolShades, I have re-read the text and saw the line...

Offline HowlingMad

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2013, 01:30:08 PM »
Question: Will you be allowing/denying trading bots?  Personally, I vote for denying. 

Offline simiane

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2013, 01:36:29 PM »
I am somewhat insanely excited about this. Not least because I'm a Ciphermine investor and feel I've finally got in on the ground floor of something good in Crypto!!

The words 'not a game' are possibly the best thing about this entire thread. It's fantastic to see it being taken so seriously with a view to being a leading exchange for the long term as crypto slowly obtains mainstream adoption.

One thing that does concern me though is the assertion that in the UK crypto is seen by HMRC as 'vouchers' - from what I've read elsewhere, this would open the door to them being subject to VAT charges on sales. Presumably then, on each share trade. Am I getting that wrong, and has thought gone into this?

Offline killerstorm

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2013, 01:52:57 PM »
completely different stuff.
ciphertrade is "centralized" and takes profits as most businesses in this space do.
distributed "shares" is completely different

Actually, integration between centralized and decentralized platforms is a very promising direction.

For example, 'colored coins' might be created for each security under the hood. They won't in any way affect people who use centralized exchange, and centralized exchange can get its profits from fees. However, it will also provide an option to withdraw shares in form of colored coins.

That allows offline storage for shares (which can easily survive closure of a centralized exchange), moving shares between exchanges etc. This allows shares to be traded on multiple exchanges without PT operators.

Actually some people said that we should implement a decentralized exchange for colored coins, but instead use them as tokens which represent ownership, which can be moved between exchanges.

Looking at it now, it was a sound recommendation: we could wait with p2ptrade implementation, and instead focus on a use for inter-exchange settlements.

On the other hand, exchange operators were really arrogant back then, they thought that 'public address' is all what is necessary for smooth operations. So i'm not sure we could sell this to exchange operators...

Offline Rannasha

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2013, 02:21:34 PM »
Question: Will you be allowing/denying trading bots?  Personally, I vote for denying.

There will be an API, which means that there will be trade bots.

I don't really see what the problem is with bots anyway. They provide liquidity to the market and can sometimes be exploited if their trading algorithms are too predictable.

Offline WoodTech

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2013, 04:08:05 PM »
Congrats so far on your progresss, I am impressed to see your vision of the site and I am looking forward to trading on it.  I usually don't post, but actually created an account to share one of my favorite things from trading on LTC and BTC Global that I have never seen anyone talk about.   This was the ability to place a buy order for multiple securities with the same BTC, for example, if I had a balance of 10 BTC, I could put in a 10btc order for Cognitive, AND a 10btc order for ASICMINER, AND a 10btc order for bASIC MINING.  This effectively multiplied my buying opportunity and I was able to support (and profit) from securities that had a sudden and unexpected drop.  I have not seen any other trading site and I personality HATE missing out on those opportunities when they come up.  Usually when I am sleeping  ;)

There are many other more important items than this, however, I believe that it was one of the many good things that Burnside did right to bring bigger money to the exchange.

I didn't think that LTCG/BTCTC allowed you to do that. Can someone else confirm please?

If so, how did it function? Once the first order was complete presumably the others got canceled?

To be honest I'm not sure that such a feature would be good for the exchange. It would allow people to create artificial buy walls which lacked real backing. You'd certainly not be able to do the opposite with shares; each sell order would lock them. The same applies to options.

Kate.

Offline WoodTech

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2013, 04:13:38 PM »
I like what I'm seeing about this new exchange. I am primarily interested in the API, since I developed a fully-featured library for the BTCT/LTC-G API and was working on a useful desktop client when burnside announced he had to pull the plug. So if the CIPHERTRADE API is compatible with the BTCT/LTC-G API that's great.

However, the BTCT/LTC-G API wasn't terribly consistent in some ways, which made it a bit difficult to work with from time to time.

Would there be interest from CIPHERTRADE in a proposal on how the BTCT/LTC-G API could be improved?

Our intention is only to use the old API schema as a starting point. We've already made some improvements to it, and intend to continue to do so. We'd love to hear thoughts on what features could be added, though best to wait until after the beta is launched. ;)

I see having a strong, engaged ecosystem of developers building on the API is pivotal to our success. Likewise for bots; of course we will allow them. The beauty of this sort of exchange is that it is open to all, human and machine alike, and without any need for the traders to have qualifications or wotnot. As Giles said too, bots just create liquidity.

Also, as part of our shadow team has demonstrated quite conclusively (in part through mathematical simulations and in part just be reading some learned papers on the topic), it is not possible to reliably make money using trading bots anyway. Some will, and some won't. If you don't like bots because they remove arbitrage opportunities and such then I suggest you either adjust your trading style or purchase one. ;)

Kate.

Offline WoodTech

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2013, 04:16:44 PM »
Actually, integration between centralized and decentralized platforms is a very promising direction. <SNIP>

Giles is right that right now we are working on a centralised platform, and that is really where the opportunity lies; it is a new space where many non-technical people are coming in and we need to be able to cater to the needs of the wide user base with a clearnet site and a simple, functional GUI.

However, we are very interested in P2P platforms and are watching those technologies closely. In the near-term it is unnecessary, but depending on how the regulatory environment evolves we may choose to change CipherTrade's technical platform.

Kate.

Offline WoodTech

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2013, 04:33:04 PM »
One thing that does concern me though is the assertion that in the UK crypto is seen by HMRC as 'vouchers' - from what I've read elsewhere, this would open the door to them being subject to VAT charges on sales. Presumably then, on each share trade. Am I getting that wrong, and has thought gone into this?

You are quite correct that this is the downside to them being deemed vouchers. However, from CipherTrade's point of view that would not matter since - for now at least - we won't be dealing in fiat. Exchanging one type of voucher for another doesn't incur VAT, but exchanging a voucher for fiat would incur VAT.

This was a topic of lengthy discussion with my accountant and BDO. The above was their conclusion. However, even there it appears unenforcible. Take the example where I use BitStamp to sell some BTC for USD. I do not know who I have sold the BTC to; if they are in the EU, I have a VAT liability, but if outside then I don't. How do I tell?

As for whether HMRC deem cryptos as fiat or vouchers, my conclusion is the latter would be the lesser of two evils. Curiously, if deemed fiat then CipherMine has a VAT problem; if we don't pay VAT on our input (ie. revenue from trading cryptocoins) then we can't reclaim the VAT on our output costs (eg. Bit Fury mining hardware, which is VATable being in the EU). I have a reserve in case we do end up with a tax bill.

Since it is all so fluid my view is that we should press on in a transparent manner and address issues as they arrive. I also have a solid track record of influencing government policy through my various positions, and I hope to do the same in this space. Britain has a pedigree of financial innovation and I think the pragmatic civil servants at the Treasury will see opportunity here rather than something to crush with an iron fist. However, should I be wrong, we have backup plans. ;)

Kate.

Offline WoodTech

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Re: Request for input on CIPHERTRADE, a new multi-coin securities exchange
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2013, 04:39:38 PM »
Sorry, spamming my own thread! We've decided we're going to allow trading of all possible cryptocoin pairs. I've amended the OP with an overview of how we see it working. Also, thanks for the PPC suggestion zaXuzI, and thanks for pointing out my typo (XMP :$)!