Author Topic: [LTC-GLOBAL] BUY-A-HASH  (Read 292306 times)

Offline Benny

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BuyAHash
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2013, 08:39:50 PM »
Honestly, with a large amount of startup funds, the best way to go is solar. Once equipment is paid-off, you have only taxes to deal with.  :-D  I got $8K back from the Feds this year.
Sure you can trust imported risers? Heard some bad things about them and you may fry mobos if they are not good workmanship.

Where do you think powered risers come from? I haven't seen a single western manufacturer.

As for solar - the cost of doing such a setup would destroy profitability in my state. If this setup were in California or another state with good output, that may make sense. However, if I were to do solar here, it'd cost far more than its worth, honestly.

Offline burnside

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BuyAHash
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2013, 08:53:58 PM »
Honestly, with a large amount of startup funds, the best way to go is solar. Once equipment is paid-off, you have only taxes to deal with.  :-D  I got $8K back from the Feds this year.
Sure you can trust imported risers? Heard some bad things about them and you may fry mobos if they are not good workmanship.

Where do you think powered risers come from? I haven't seen a single western manufacturer.

As for solar - the cost of doing such a setup would destroy profitability in my state. If this setup were in California or another state with good output, that may make sense. However, if I were to do solar here, it'd cost far more than its worth, honestly.

I agree.  Unless you're in the sun belt, I think solar will have a 10+ year payoff.  (been looking at it for the Kattare datacenter.)

Offline Malak

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BuyAHash
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2013, 10:08:19 PM »
Some people are making risers by hand.

Yes, the solar is worth it because in 10 years your electricity cost is zero(including paying-off the installation).
You have to think long-term. Look at how quickly the electric rates are going-up. That's a huge factor. My electric bill doubled in the last 7 years before I got into mining. If the timescale is a factor for you, then don't get battery back-up and then it will pay-off in more like 7 years. I got $12K of my 40K paid-off upfront by the State and then several K back from the feds i.e. half-cost total! I have power when the grid goes down for at least a day. No worries about gas shortages for generators. You are also not factoring in how much quicker the profit of mining will pay-off the system. Most of these time calculations are based solely on not paying your normal electric bill. I had 4 cards running most of the last month and my bill is only $92 for the whole house.

Offline Benny

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BuyAHash
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2013, 11:10:33 PM »
Some people are making risers by hand.

Yes, the solar is worth it because in 10 years your electricity cost is zero(including paying-off the installation).
You have to think long-term. Look at how quickly the electric rates are going-up. That's a huge factor. My electric bill doubled in the last 7 years before I got into mining. If the timescale is a factor for you, then don't get battery back-up and then it will pay-off in more like 7 years. I got $12K of my 40K paid-off upfront by the State and then several K back from the feds i.e. half-cost total! I have power when the grid goes down for at least a day. No worries about gas shortages for generators. You are also not factoring in how much quicker the profit of mining will pay-off the system. Most of these time calculations are based solely on not paying your normal electric bill. I had 4 cards running most of the last month and my bill is only $92 for the whole house.

The risers still come from China, even if people are doing DIY connections.

Here's the problem with solar:

1. This facility is inside a city with little or no rooftop space. Therefore, installing solar is a non-starter, period.
2. If I were to install 100% capacity for hashing, even at 100 MH, I would need a system that would cost about $500,000 USD, after heavy tax rebates.
3. Assuming a cost of $1,000 per MH, I would be spending approximately 5 times as much on building solar as I would hashing hardware.

This is why I cannot do such a system in good faith to investors. I am sure there are other companies that like solar, but its simply not economical in Ohio for a commercial facility of this type.

Or... I could simply choose to buy wind power from my local electric co-op for about 0.005c per KWh. That would be much cheaper, and just as good to the environment.

Offline Malak

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BuyAHash
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2013, 11:17:10 PM »
Your last idea is an awesome one.

Ok, so if it is $5K per MH(which can make about $100/month) then it will be paid-off in a little over four years. Thanks for making my point!  lol   Not to mention the positive press of mining not adding to the grid demand.

Offline burnside

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BuyAHash
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2013, 11:31:01 PM »
Some people are making risers by hand.

Yes, the solar is worth it because in 10 years your electricity cost is zero(including paying-off the installation).
You have to think long-term. Look at how quickly the electric rates are going-up. That's a huge factor. My electric bill doubled in the last 7 years before I got into mining. If the timescale is a factor for you, then don't get battery back-up and then it will pay-off in more like 7 years. I got $12K of my 40K paid-off upfront by the State and then several K back from the feds i.e. half-cost total! I have power when the grid goes down for at least a day. No worries about gas shortages for generators. You are also not factoring in how much quicker the profit of mining will pay-off the system. Most of these time calculations are based solely on not paying your normal electric bill. I had 4 cards running most of the last month and my bill is only $92 for the whole house.

I definitely agree that solar is worth looking at for residential installations.

For commercial it's a different story.  The tax breaks are not as good.  It takes a much larger installation.  (at one point we figured $120k of panels would cover our roof and provide 10% of our power at the peak time of day, or ~2% of our power averaged on a 24h basis.)  The northern states don't get enough sun to realize the full potential, and in our specific case, our consultant calculated out an 18 year return.  (included things like maintenance and power going up 10% every year so fairly detailed)


Offline Benny

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BuyAHash
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2013, 11:45:43 PM »
Your last idea is an awesome one.

Ok, so if it is $5K per MH(which can make about $100/month) then it will be paid-off in a little over four years. Thanks for making my point!  lol   Not to mention the positive press of mining not adding to the grid demand.

Sorry, but your math is off.

You're making the assumption that 100% of the revenues can go towards paying off the installation of solar. As stated in the initial offer, 50% of profits would have to go to dividends, 10% towards additional rigs, and 40% to overhead (and this is split between hiring staff, repairs, maintenance, rents, and electricity). Comparatively, grid-based commercial electricity would represent about 2-3% of total costs in a commercial facility.

Even if 5% of total profits generated could go towards solar repayment (assuming a static profit margin), it would take 360 months to repay it, or 30 years. And again, that's putting twice as much money into electricity than what it'd cost for wind generation in Ohio. This is why your numbers don't add up. Even then, my math assumes about a 40% subsidy from the State of Ohio and the federal government. The costs may be even higher when you spec out battery capacity needed to run about 30 KW of hashing power overnight.

Offline Malak

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BuyAHash
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2013, 12:36:00 AM »
Yes, you are in a different situation. I was speaking more generally. Power is 20 cents here.

Offline trommie

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BuyAHash
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2013, 12:41:40 AM »
Going off-topic here but if someone was to put up a security for wind/solar/hydro generation in a country that has feed-in-tariffs then I'd be very interested in investing.

In the case of a mining bond though I don't see the pay-off, unfortunately. Personally I think mining offers should do whatever makes most profits, particularly over short/medium term. If that is buying from grid or wind co-op then fine. As long as the person running it has looked through the costs and decided this is the best offer they can put out there then I'm happy to consider it on it's merits. Many things can happen and I don't want my bond/shares reliant on a pay-off that is more than 5 years away!

Offline Benny

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BuyAHash
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2013, 03:19:10 AM »
Hi everyone,

I completed the initial draft and submitted it to LTC-Global. I hope the information is sufficient. If there are any sticking points that I need to flesh out, let me know.

Offline Benny

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BUY-A-HASH
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2013, 05:18:39 AM »
I figure that it'd be good to throw out some pictures of rigs if anyone is interested in the evolution of what we've deployed.

We're planning on adding a few rigs that we have hardware for, but are just waiting for risers on.

The original setup prior to the first batch of risers. You can see a good bit of boxes of hardware that were undeployed at the time:



Front of the 15MH "hash monster" - Puts out a ton of heat, and we're working to do a better cooling setup. Right now, we have a nice sized exhaust fan in the corner of the room venting into the attic, but the solution is sub-optimal. Planning on re-working for a solid HVAC solution this weekend:



The back of the rig. Cord management on this type of open-air setup leaves a lot to be desired. We're going to move to a milk carton design soon for a better modular setup:



Another view of the back. I'm sure you can count the GPUs and do some simple math to see that my estimate of 15MH is legitimate (the entire setup is about 22x7950s and 8x7850s:



Certainly, its not pretty. But it gets the job done at the moment. When we move to a commercial facility, we already have an engineer coming on board to draw up some nifty push-pull HVAC plans to vent the hot air, with a cool air intake in another part of the facility.

Hopefully that gives you an idea of what we have deployed. We still have about ~$5,000 in hardware left to build, but are stuck due to risers that are still on the boat from China (I have approximately 1,400 on order).

Offline Malak

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BUY-A-HASH
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2013, 11:24:28 AM »
Must be the same boat that Cablesaurus has his order on! Been waiting 3 weeks.  Ugh.

Offline Benny

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BUY-A-HASH
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2013, 12:48:47 PM »
Must be the same boat that Cablesaurus has his order on! Been waiting 3 weeks.  Ugh.

I assume so. As per the factory, they ran out of 1x - 16x PCBs right at the end. I placed my order on April the 23rd. They just contacted me that they are shipping them today or have already shipped it. I went ahead and ordered a 2nd batch from another vendor..

So hopefully I can get them in stock within the next week. However, I've ordered enough to ensure that I will always have them in stock, even if by some reason it takes 3 weeks per batch.

Offline burnside

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BUY-A-HASH
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2013, 05:54:23 PM »
I've read through the Issuer Detail, checked out the LLC registration, and read through the prospectus, looks like you have a pretty good handle on things.  Unless there are any objections from the community (anything I'm missing?) I'm ready to remove the admin lock.

Cheers.

Offline Benny

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Re: [LTC-GLOBAL] BUY-A-HASH
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2013, 07:40:46 PM »
Great. If you have any due dilligence questions, don't hestiate to ask, or we can schedule a Skype call or chat.

I know that quite a few people have been ripped off on mining bonds, and have lots incredible amounts of LTC. I am sure that the amount of shares I am issuing is probably on the upper end of what has been offered on LTC-Global, so I want to make sure there's more transparency and available information for due diligence when and where possible.