LitecoinTalk Archive (READ ONLY)

Other => Meta => Scammer Accusations => Topic started by: marcellogreen on October 06, 2014, 05:08:27 PM

Title: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on October 06, 2014, 05:08:27 PM
Just make sure to keep re-investing

That's the only way this project will stay afloat
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: kitano on October 06, 2014, 05:32:07 PM
Only Chris can answer to your question.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 06, 2014, 05:33:52 PM
Just make sure to keep re-investing

That's the only way this project will stay afloat lol

Thanks for your trolling LOL.

Hello to all - My first post here! :)

I have a question, which i assume is already answered - but i can't find it.

-

Assuming someone buys an 1K6X.
Then.. in month 6, he decides to move 1000 shares, to another user X.
Then.. in month 10, he decides to move another 300 to user Y.
In month 11, he decides to move the remaining 300 to user Z.

Now, How and when is the maintainance/power fee billed to these 3 new owners ?
How can these 3 determine when they have to pay ?

Thanks.

Of course these sold shares will expire the same date from the original shares. If not you can trick the system to have shares forever.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on October 06, 2014, 05:36:02 PM
I wish I was trolling but its so obvious its clear as day.

I'm actually thinking about starting my own ponzi considering how gullible everyone here is lol
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: capncook on October 06, 2014, 05:37:46 PM
Of course these sold shares will expire the same date from the original shares. If not you can trick the system to have shares forever.

Yes, but not only that. For example, I see this fancy groupbuys popping up everywhere.
Since shares seem to be added to a big stash, nobody knows what he actually sells.. (its a mix of 1yr/expiry dates if i would sell/send them now).

Isnt it strange there is nothing arranged for that, while moving shares is possible for quite some time ?
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 06, 2014, 05:39:56 PM
Of course these sold shares will expire the same date from the original shares. If not you can trick the system to have shares forever.

Yes, but not only that. For example, I see this fancy groupbuys popping up everywhere.
Since shares seem to be added to a big stash, nobody knows what he actually sells.. (its a mix of 1yr/expiry dates if i would sell/send them now).

Isnt it strange there is nothing arranged for that, while moving shares is possible for quite some time ?

Just because the information isn't forward facing, doesn't mean it isn't in the backend DB.

I agree some better tracking would be nice for shares but you are implying something without proper knowledge of the situation.

I wish I was trolling but its so obvious its clear as day.

I'm actually thinking about starting my own ponzi considering how gullible everyone here is lol

Which parts are obvious? You are seemingly so enlightened. Perhaps you should work on shipping first to market FPGA prototypes before you start your ponzi? Or maybe just go troll elsewhere.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on October 06, 2014, 05:41:38 PM
I wish I was trolling but its so obvious its clear as day.

I'm actually thinking about starting my own ponzi considering how gullible everyone here is lol

Either you are a troll or an idiot.  Pick one and continue to run with it.  Also, stop spamming this thread immediately.  You've made your point, now contribute something or leave.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: capncook on October 06, 2014, 05:42:25 PM
Just because the information isn't forward facing, doesn't mean it isn't in the backend DB.

I agree some better tracking would be nice for shares but you are implying something without proper knowledge of the situation.

Yes, truely.. i cannot imagine that it is NOT beeing registered per share.. Because it would make billing impossible.
However, my point is.. In these groupbuys.. its very tricky to buy then. (unless you can confirm the trye origin-date of the shares)
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 06, 2014, 05:47:42 PM
Just because the information isn't forward facing, doesn't mean it isn't in the backend DB.

I agree some better tracking would be nice for shares but you are implying something without proper knowledge of the situation.

Yes, truely.. i cannot imagine that it is NOT beeing registered per share.. Because it would make billing impossible.
However, my point is.. In these groupbuys.. its very tricky to buy then. (unless you can confirm the trye origin-date of the shares)

It's all speculation, maybe Chris will chime in at some point once things calm down with the new chip deployment.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on October 06, 2014, 05:48:21 PM
I especially like the part when people get so heated over information they themselves have no way of proving. Right on queue people!
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 06, 2014, 05:53:11 PM
I especially like the part when people get so heated over information they themselves have no way of proving. Right on queue people!

Thanks for adding nothing to the discussion. You are clearly the first troll to pop in here, not like we haven't seen your message 100 times in the past 100 pages.

When payouts start to dissolve please come back and feel free to run wild.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on October 06, 2014, 05:58:46 PM
I especially like the part when people get so heated over information they themselves have no way of proving. Right on queue people!

Thanks for adding nothing to the discussion. You are clearly the first troll to pop in here, not like we haven't seen your message 100 times in the past 100 pages.

When payouts start to dissolve please come back and feel free to run wild.

Like you're adding anything to the discussion? Again, stop getting so heated. I havn't posted 100 times lol

Payouts will eventually start to crumble, that's how those schemes tend to end. I'm not the type of person that will come back and say I told you so. I'd rather be the type of person that brings reasoning to the table. You seem to be the closed minded person that knows everything.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: shubell on October 06, 2014, 06:09:56 PM
Such realism, much wow
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 06, 2014, 06:16:12 PM
I especially like the part when people get so heated over information they themselves have no way of proving. Right on queue people!

Thanks for adding nothing to the discussion. You are clearly the first troll to pop in here, not like we haven't seen your message 100 times in the past 100 pages.

When payouts start to dissolve please come back and feel free to run wild.

Like you're adding anything to the discussion? Again, stop getting so heated. I havn't posted 100 times lol

Payouts will eventually start to crumble, that's how those schemes tend to end. I'm not the type of person that will come back and say I told you so. I'd rather be the type of person that brings reasoning to the table. You seem to be the closed minded person that knows everything.

Your the 30th troll to run through, hence the 100th post comment, I know reading comprehension isn't your guys strong suit. Which is likely why you enjoy making baseless comments.

Have you read the entire thread? Or did you just put down your coloring book to post a comment?
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on October 06, 2014, 06:24:12 PM
I especially like the part when people get so heated over information they themselves have no way of proving. Right on queue people!

Thanks for adding nothing to the discussion. You are clearly the first troll to pop in here, not like we haven't seen your message 100 times in the past 100 pages.

When payouts start to dissolve please come back and feel free to run wild.

Like you're adding anything to the discussion? Again, stop getting so heated. I havn't posted 100 times lol

Payouts will eventually start to crumble, that's how those schemes tend to end. I'm not the type of person that will come back and say I told you so. I'd rather be the type of person that brings reasoning to the table. You seem to be the closed minded person that knows everything.

Your the 30th troll to run through, hence the 100th post comment, I know reading comprehension isn't your guys strong suit. Which is likely why you enjoy making baseless comments.

Have you read the entire thread? Or did you just put down your coloring book to post a comment?

Again, your insults make it clear that you're still heated for whatever reason.

Keep in mind you do have the option to use reasoning and logic, but as you and I can see, you like taking the troll route yourself.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 06, 2014, 06:29:38 PM

Again, your insults make it clear that you're still heated for whatever reason.

Keep in mind you do have the option to use reasoning and logic, but as you and I can see, you like taking the troll route yourself.

You've been trolling the thread for a month now, your last 8 posts here are simply whining, you made your point, albeit baseless.

If you had invested like the rest of us you'd be enjoying weekly payouts with your initial investment back in your pocket.

Is it so hard to believe that Chris is 3-6 months ahead of the competition?

He had the first functioning/shipping FPGA in the market. It had problems but it worked.

He has been working on his ASIC since last Christmas.

He has been paying out for months with his farm shares and later ASIC shares.

Instead of spreading FUD, maybe you should educate yourself.

Or is that too much to ask?
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: xephyr on October 06, 2014, 06:33:16 PM
Sukarti: best to ignore the trolls, engaging is what they crave.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 06, 2014, 06:36:24 PM
Sukarti: best to ignore the trolls, engaging is what they crave.

I'm equally bored at work, no worries  ;)
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on October 06, 2014, 06:38:31 PM

Again, your insults make it clear that you're still heated for whatever reason.

Keep in mind you do have the option to use reasoning and logic, but as you and I can see, you like taking the troll route yourself.

You've been trolling the thread for a month now, your last 8 posts here are simply whining, you made your point, albeit baseless.

If you had invested like the rest of us you'd be enjoying weekly payouts with your initial investment back in your pocket.

Is it so hard to believe that Chris is 3-6 months ahead of the competition?

He had the first functioning/shipping FPGA in the market. It had problems but it worked.

He has been working on his ASIC since last Christmas.

He has been paying out for months with his farm shares and later ASIC shares.

Instead of spreading FUD, maybe you should educate yourself.

Or is that too much to ask?

You don't know me, and I don't know you, this much we can agree upon.

In my line of work, I constantly spot/deal with pyramid/ponzi schemes. I know what to look for, and I'm very rarely wrong.

You're missing the point entirely. Its not hard to believe someone is ahead of competition, with a functioning FPGA.

What is hard to believe is the amount of hash power that is going on here. The low-key method that was used to get early investors is 1 obvious sign. The constant deals that get better and better to gain additional customers is the 2nd obvious sign.

I'm not spreading FUD, I'm spreading my opinion on something I have a lot of experience in dealing with.

I know there's a lot of trolls out there, but I'm not one of them. I've been here from the start, and I have been following the entire thread.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 06, 2014, 06:46:37 PM
What is difficult to believe about the hash power?

KNC can deliver thousands of Titans (although shoddy and broken) and 100's of GH/S but someone else can't?

Mining gets cheaper, that's the nature of the business.

I suppose Gaw/Zeus are ponzi's as well?

Zeus/Terrry has reduced his prices month after month after month. His prices are higher than LTCGear but they're dropping month to month. They also started considerably after LTCGear was in the space.

Time will tell.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Hashman on October 06, 2014, 06:50:19 PM
If you do not believe that LTCgear is a credible business and mining operation that is entirely up to you but it is completely unjustified to push your opinions on people that are happy with LTCgear and the way in which Chris continues to look after his customers. You are clearly just trying to spead negativity which isn't appreciated on this thread. So far regardless of what you think of this being a Ponzi scheme we are all happy customers so go and spread your FUD on the BFL or Hashfast threads I am sure they will appreciate your negativity!
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Larry W on October 06, 2014, 06:52:10 PM
Also, in December many companies are going to be selling Mh for $5. Chris is just a little ahead of the game. Plausible in my opinion. Your thoughts?
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on October 06, 2014, 06:58:31 PM
What is difficult to believe about the hash power?

KNC can deliver thousands of Titans (although shoddy and broken) and 100's of GH/S but someone else can't?

Mining gets cheaper, that's the nature of the business.

I suppose Gaw/Zeus are ponzi's as well?

Zeus/Terrry has reduced his prices month after month after month. His prices are higher than LTCGear but they're dropping month to month. They also started considerably after LTCGear was in the space.

Time will tell.

My lunch break is up so I gotta get back to work, but you're still missing the point.

You're right KNC can deliver, and you're right that their is a huge mark up in pricing and that mining does get cheaper.

Gaw and Zeus are most likely not a ponzi.

To make it brief I'll ask you this. Do you think most people with a cloud/hash service, like bee and others, are in this to make money, or are they in this to support the network? I'm assuming we have the same answer to this.

Now moving forward, why would a company that is in it to make profit, stay out of the spotlight with the best ROI and best pricing available? I'd say the majority of people on here didn't even know about LTCgear for a few + months after its been running. No advertising, nothing. If I had a product with the best ROI and pricing, I would corner the entire market at a time when there was nothing available (which was the case).

Its very easy to prove legitimacy, if you're in fact, legitimate.


Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 06, 2014, 07:25:16 PM
I've worked in IT for quite awhile, the best products NEVER have the best marketing. Most companies tend to have one or the other. Great marketing/sales OR a technically superior product.

Why that dichotomy repeats over and over I don't know exactly but that is what I've seen in my experience.

Of all the companies in the scrypt ASIC space, I would consider Chris the least likely to be driven solely by greed based on the path he took into the space. Hobby miner, FPGA prototype, small FPGA sale, ASIC gen 1, ASIC gen 2.

I agree the discussion should be split off.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 06, 2014, 08:13:11 PM
The only question i am asking myself is, if he is making money from this deal, how much money would he make just mining for himself...of course there is always funding which usually explains the sells.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Marvell9 on October 06, 2014, 08:16:40 PM
The only question i am asking myself is, if he is making money from this deal, how much money would he make just mining for himself...of course there is always funding which usually explains the sells.

yes I think you hit the nail on the head there he could use the $$ he makes from selling shares to invest in bigger better chip fabs
as a way to stay ahead of the game.  Either way as long as I get my weekly payouts I dont care about the smoke and mirrors lol
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 06, 2014, 08:21:17 PM
The only question i am asking myself is, if he is making money from this deal, how much money would he make just mining for himself...of course there is always funding which usually explains the sells.

It's all about risk mitigation.

If you could sell 50% of your farm and have 100% expenses recouped day 1, would you do it? No worries about price volatility, etc, everything coming in is profit.

The big anniversary sale didn't commence until shortly before he picked up batch 2 ASICs either. Perhaps he needed a good chunk of funding or didn't want to pay entirely out of his own pocket for his batch 2 chips.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 06, 2014, 08:42:29 PM
The only question i am asking myself is, if he is making money from this deal, how much money would he make just mining for himself...of course there is always funding which usually explains the sells.

It's all about risk mitigation.

If you could sell 50% of your farm and have 100% expenses recouped day 1, would you do it? No worries about price volatility, etc, everything coming in is profit.

The big anniversary sale didn't commence until shortly before he picked up batch 2 ASICs either. Perhaps he needed a good chunk of funding or didn't want to pay entirely out of his own pocket for his batch 2 chips.

Nicely written, thanks :)

Let's wait and see what the future holds, 2 more weeks for ROI!

Going out of stock is very not-ponzi btw, no marketing too ;D

I think he sold around 1k shares within the last weeks (more?) thats 160 ghs, while i say it isn't impossible to deploy them (especially with your own chip) you do need serious ressources to do so...and power!

Best chips run around 5w per MH, do the math. Chris has been solid so far but there is always doubt - welcome to crypto xD
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on October 06, 2014, 08:55:28 PM
The only question i am asking myself is, if he is making money from this deal, how much money would he make just mining for himself...of course there is always funding which usually explains the sells.

It's all about risk mitigation.

If you could sell 50% of your farm and have 100% expenses recouped day 1, would you do it? No worries about price volatility, etc, everything coming in is profit.

The big anniversary sale didn't commence until shortly before he picked up batch 2 ASICs either. Perhaps he needed a good chunk of funding or didn't want to pay entirely out of his own pocket for his batch 2 chips.

Nicely written, thanks :)

Let's wait and see what the future holds, 2 more weeks for ROI!

Going out of stock is very not-ponzi btw, no marketing too ;D

I think he sold around 1k shares within the last weeks (more?) thats 160 ghs, while i say it isn't impossible to deploy them (especially with your own chip) you do need serious ressources to do so...and power!

Best chips run around 5w per MH, do the math. Chris has been solid so far but there is always doubt - welcome to crypto xD


You're right that going out of stock is very non-ponzi like, but he has never been out of stock for more than a day or 2.

You guys can do the math, there is no way there is this much hash power. We're talking massive scale warehouse, which most likely doesn't exist. The power alone could probably power a small city.

The thing you guys don't realize is while you think you may have ROI'd (sy yours is coming in 2 weeks), you really havn't unless you've cashed out and its in your bank account.

I guarantee you most people have not ROI'd because most people have been re-investing. On paper you guys have ROI'd but I'm dreading the day most people stop re-investing and decide to cashout =/

One way you guys can see this for yourself is to make a spreadsheet and have users submit how many shares they have and whether or not they have re-invested. You'll be shocked to see 95+ % have not cashed out and have been re-investing. Why would you cash out with such high payouts?
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 06, 2014, 08:57:08 PM
Volume is impossible to track due to the fact that unfulfilled orders still increment, orders were locked to single units for awhile but that isn't the case any longer. I have several orders that I forgot to add the coupon to or didn't get coin through in time.

The mining facilities are definitely chewing through some power, that is for sure!

There was a spreadsheet floating around, had it broken through 100GH yet? I think Sy put it together actually.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 06, 2014, 09:06:25 PM
You're right that going out of stock is very non-ponzi like, but he has never been out of stock for more than a day or 2.

You guys can do the math, there is no way there is this much hash power. We're talking massive scale warehouse, which most likely doesn't exist. The power alone could probably power a small city.

The thing you guys don't realize is while you think you may have ROI'd (sy yours is coming in 2 weeks), you really havn't unless you've cashed out and its in your bank account.

I guarantee you most people have not ROI'd because most people have been re-investing. On paper you guys have ROI'd but I'm dreading the day most people stop re-investing and decide to cashout =/

One way you guys can see this for yourself is to make a spreadsheet and have users submit how many shares they have and whether or not they have re-invested. You'll be shocked to see 95+ % have not cashed out and have been re-investing. Why would you cash out with such high payouts?

This is only partly true, the shop has been out of stock for quite a while until 3-4 weeks ago when chris started to cancle unpaid orders...but you are right about ROI, if you always reinvest you never reach it and just chase a dream BUT and that's another thing i find odd if you look at it from the ponzi angel, he does pay out every week, all the others just credit your account making it easier to reinvest and making it possible to not own the funds in the first place.

I am not swearing this is legit, no one can tell for sure than Chris but the only red flag i got is amount and power consumption, it is doable with enough preparations, money and know how which Chris should have...but its still hard and would probably fill more than one data center at around 1mw total consumption (assumed number based on known products)

Awww dang now i took the thread into the legit discussion myself, shit xD

Ah and yes, i don't reinvest straight ahead, i am currently at 50% ROI on paper and around 30% in wallet xD
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 06, 2014, 09:08:39 PM
Volume is impossible to track due to the fact that unfulfilled orders still increment, orders were locked to single units for awhile but that isn't the case any longer. I have several orders that I forgot to add the coupon to or didn't get coin through in time.

Sep 2nd - 4388

Sep 16th - 5150

Sep 19th - 5459

Oct 2nd - 6791

The mining facilities are definitely chewing through some power, that is for sure!

There was a spreadsheet floating around, had it broken through 100GH yet? I think Sy put it together actually.

The spreadsheet is at 83.84 GHs - @everyone feel free to pm me more numbers :)
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on October 06, 2014, 09:12:36 PM
You're right that going out of stock is very non-ponzi like, but he has never been out of stock for more than a day or 2.

You guys can do the math, there is no way there is this much hash power. We're talking massive scale warehouse, which most likely doesn't exist. The power alone could probably power a small city.

The thing you guys don't realize is while you think you may have ROI'd (sy yours is coming in 2 weeks), you really havn't unless you've cashed out and its in your bank account.

I guarantee you most people have not ROI'd because most people have been re-investing. On paper you guys have ROI'd but I'm dreading the day most people stop re-investing and decide to cashout =/

One way you guys can see this for yourself is to make a spreadsheet and have users submit how many shares they have and whether or not they have re-invested. You'll be shocked to see 95+ % have not cashed out and have been re-investing. Why would you cash out with such high payouts?

This is only partly true, the shop has been out of stock for quite a while until 3-4 weeks ago when chris started to cancle unpaid orders...but you are right about ROI, if you always reinvest you never reach it and just chase a dream BUT and that's another thing i find odd if you look at it from the ponzi angel, he does pay out every week, all the others just credit your account making it easier to reinvest and making it possible to not own the funds in the first place.

I am not swearing this is legit, no one can tell for sure than Chris but the only red flag i got is amount and power consumption, it is doable with enough preparations, money and know how which Chris should have...but its still hard and would probably fill more than one data center at around 1mw total consumption (assumed number based on known products)

Awww dang now i took the thread into the legit discussion myself, shit xD

Ah and yes, i don't reinvest straight ahead, i am currently at 50% ROI on paper and around 30% in wallet xD

I can tell you're a lot smarter than most people on here, so I'm not worried about you.

But the majority of people, and when I say majority, I'd estimate somewhere close to 90%+ are fully re-investing.

Its no coincidence that the anniversary coupon came out around the time he needed more money.

Here's another thing to look for in the near future. Another very sweet deal is coming, I guarantee you it (on par or better than the anniversary coupon). The only way these schemes work is if more money, and more importantly new money comes in.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Kim Jong-un on October 06, 2014, 09:14:55 PM
please go to  the other thread with this
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 06, 2014, 09:30:08 PM
please go to  the other thread with this

Yep, my bad  ::) i've split them off
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: kitano on October 06, 2014, 09:49:09 PM
I noticed that now are available (sometimes) only the 1600 and 830 qAsics shares packages and the dual mods M10 that are the most expensive in the shop. In the past were available also the small shares packages and the small modifiers. From a commercial point of view the small investors are cut off.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: organizer on October 06, 2014, 09:55:53 PM
Sy feel free to delete my last post there (it's below... i must have been typing as you were dropping the hammer):

One way you guys can see this for yourself is to make a spreadsheet and have users submit how many shares they have and whether or not they have re-invested. You'll be shocked to see 95+ % have not cashed out and have been re-investing. Why would you cash out with such high payouts?

Constant reinvestment is not unique to LTC Gear... or Hashlets... it's just that we've entered a more "convienient" world of mining where earlier this year it was Zeus and before that Gridseeds. I had pretty much stopped mining early Spring with the exception of some tinkering on the x11, etc. coins. I had a buddy though who had probably a similar amount of BTC saved up... but kept dumping it into Gridseeds... of course he's no longer mining... and again, how do the people who were buying $600 280xs feel?

Addiction to constantly wanting MORE hashing power isn't new.. you need a realistic plan based on where you start and stick to it. Period. I know i've even pulled the trigger and bought "just one more"... but at some point you either realize it's happening or you don't and you're out of the game.

Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 06, 2014, 10:14:50 PM

I can tell you're a lot smarter than most people on here, so I'm not worried about you.

But the majority of people, and when I say majority, I'd estimate somewhere close to 90%+ are fully re-investing.

Its no coincidence that the anniversary coupon came out around the time he needed more money.

Here's another thing to look for in the near future. Another very sweet deal is coming, I guarantee you it (on par or better than the anniversary coupon). The only way these schemes work is if more money, and more importantly new money comes in.

You can guarantee a new better deal is coming, welcome to mining. Nothing new there. Gridseed, Zeus, Gaw all offer cheaper mining now than they did months ago. Why would LTCGear be different?

A majority of the people I have spoken with have already made full ROI with LTCGear, that's coin in their wallet or cash in their bank, not a single one is fully reinvesting. Most of these guys have been around for at least 30 days though. No idea what the swarm from Gaw are using for an investment strategy.

Enjoy sitting on the sidelines, I'll keep on enjoying my payouts.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 06, 2014, 10:16:16 PM
I noticed that now are available (sometimes) only the 1600 and 830 qAsics shares packages and the dual mods M10 that are the most expensive in the shop. In the past were available also the small shares packages and the small modifiers. From a commercial point of view the small investors are cut off.

There's half a dozen people selling shares for the smaller investors. So they aren't really cutoff.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: kitano on October 06, 2014, 10:24:58 PM
I'm glad for them. The commercial strategy of Chris is changed in the last  three months: only the most expensive items are available in the shop.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 07, 2014, 02:29:33 AM
I'm glad for them. The commercial strategy of Chris is changed in the last  three months: only the most expensive items are available in the shop.

The other items aren't really competitive $/mh and he has left the "historical" items in the shop for whatever reason. it is interesting to watch the $/mh progression of the past 9 months though.

Perhaps in the next revision he'll include a smaller shares pack at a similar $/mh. It is more hassle dealing with lots of little customers, especially the huge influx from Gaw the past 2 weeks.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on October 07, 2014, 02:35:14 AM
I'm glad for them. The commercial strategy of Chris is changed in the last  three months: only the most expensive items are available in the shop.

The other items aren't really competitive $/mh and he has left the "historical" items in the shop for whatever reason. it is interesting to watch the $/mh progression of the past 9 months though.

Perhaps in the next revision he'll include a smaller shares pack at a similar $/mh. It is more hassle dealing with lots of little customers, especially the huge influx from Gaw the past 2 weeks.

Having the other products in the shop is somewhat a good thing.  It shows his relatively long term production.  Although it would be nice if they were archived somewhere rather than having them actively displayed.  Maybe a discontinued category.

I agree smaller packs means more work in managing them all, it requires more automation.  But I remember a year ago when we were paying $400 for 700Khs.  In 6 months 160MHs will be a small pack.  lol
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: skuser on October 07, 2014, 09:48:51 AM
Volume is impossible to track due to the fact that unfulfilled orders still increment, orders were locked to single units for awhile but that isn't the case any longer. I have several orders that I forgot to add the coupon to or didn't get coin through in time.

Sep 2nd - 4388

Sep 16th - 5150

Sep 19th - 5459

Oct 2nd - 6791

The mining facilities are definitely chewing through some power, that is for sure!

There was a spreadsheet floating around, had it broken through 100GH yet? I think Sy put it together actually.

The spreadsheet is at 83.84 GHs - @everyone feel free to pm me more numbers :)

Actually using these numbers and by compensating multipackage orders with failed orders using simple math calculation we will get to: 6791-4388=2403*160=385 GH/s...At 5W/MHs it would need 2Megawatts of power.

Anyway, if this is a ponzi, there are some good news also:
1. at current sales levels, let's say 100 orders/daily weekly income will be slightly higher than next weeks dividends for whole hashpower. So at least next weekend is covered.
2. weekly need of 77k Litecoins for dividends could actually support LTC price a bit

I jumped on the train at the end of August being happy I found anniversary "deal" and have already money back (in BTC terms of course) however the neverending working anniversary coupon plus unability of Chris to press a button on his phone to make a pic of the farm makes me a bit confused  :o
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: cloudminer on October 07, 2014, 12:15:18 PM
What is difficult to believe about the hash power?

KNC can deliver thousands of Titans (although shoddy and broken) and 100's of GH/S but someone else can't?

Mining gets cheaper, that's the nature of the business.

I suppose Gaw/Zeus are ponzi's as well?

Zeus/Terrry has reduced his prices month after month after month. His prices are higher than LTCGear but they're dropping month to month. They also started considerably after LTCGear was in the space.

Time will tell.

My lunch break is up so I gotta get back to work, but you're still missing the point.

You're right KNC can deliver, and you're right that their is a huge mark up in pricing and that mining does get cheaper.

Gaw and Zeus are most likely not a ponzi.

To make it brief I'll ask you this. Do you think most people with a cloud/hash service, like bee and others, are in this to make money, or are they in this to support the network? I'm assuming we have the same answer to this.

Now moving forward, why would a company that is in it to make profit, stay out of the spotlight with the best ROI and best pricing available? I'd say the majority of people on here didn't even know about LTCgear for a few + months after its been running. No advertising, nothing. If I had a product with the best ROI and pricing, I would corner the entire market at a time when there was nothing available (which was the case).

Its very easy to prove legitimacy, if you're in fact, legitimate.

You asked why a company that is for profit is not out in the spotlight - I thought perhaps because the owner is not a marketing guy and just simply lacks business development knowledge? 

It could be that the owner is great at developing his own mining ware and running a successful farm, but not strong in advertising or marketing.

No advertising, nothing, because the know-how is not there.

There are many businesses run by people with sophisticated product skills but weak marketing/PR skills.  LTCgear could just be one of them. 

If we're talking about hypothetical scenarios (like LTCgear being a ponzi), this could be one hypothetical scenario.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 07, 2014, 01:11:50 PM
The only question i am asking myself is, if he is making money from this deal, how much money would he make just mining for himself...of course there is always funding which usually explains the sells.

It's all about risk mitigation.

If you could sell 50% of your farm and have 100% expenses recouped day 1, would you do it? No worries about price volatility, etc, everything coming in is profit.

The big anniversary sale didn't commence until shortly before he picked up batch 2 ASICs either. Perhaps he needed a good chunk of funding or didn't want to pay entirely out of his own pocket for his batch 2 chips.

Nicely written, thanks :)

Let's wait and see what the future holds, 2 more weeks for ROI!

Going out of stock is very not-ponzi btw, no marketing too ;D

I think he sold around 1k shares within the last weeks (more?) thats 160 ghs, while i say it isn't impossible to deploy them (especially with your own chip) you do need serious ressources to do so...and power!

Best chips run around 5w per MH, do the math. Chris has been solid so far but there is always doubt - welcome to crypto xD


You're right that going out of stock is very non-ponzi like, but he has never been out of stock for more than a day or 2.

You guys can do the math, there is no way there is this much hash power. We're talking massive scale warehouse, which most likely doesn't exist. The power alone could probably power a small city.

The thing you guys don't realize is while you think you may have ROI'd (sy yours is coming in 2 weeks), you really havn't unless you've cashed out and its in your bank account.

I guarantee you most people have not ROI'd because most people have been re-investing. On paper you guys have ROI'd but I'm dreading the day most people stop re-investing and decide to cashout =/

One way you guys can see this for yourself is to make a spreadsheet and have users submit how many shares they have and whether or not they have re-invested. You'll be shocked to see 95+ % have not cashed out and have been re-investing. Why would you cash out with such high payouts?

What is the difficult point of calculating ROI? You paid 10BTC for your shares and after 5,6 weeks you got 10BTC back to your wallet, that's what I call ROI. And according to my research a lot of people have had that point long time ago.

People who are greedy and reinvest, then it's their own fault if they never get their ROI. Of course every highly return investment has a quite high risk too, if not you will have a lot of rich people in this world. Simple.
If you don't like the service or don't believe in it, just don't invest your money. Your trolling just makes you look like you're from other competitors trying to bring Chris's business down, IMHO.

Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: gsupp on October 09, 2014, 01:13:44 AM
You guys can do the math, there is no way there is this much hash power. We're talking massive scale warehouse, which most likely doesn't exist. The power alone could probably power a small city.

How do you figure "there is no way" there could be that much hash power? There's 0.8 megawatts worth of miners on the floor above me (296 Spondoolies SP30s to be exact) and they're not in a massive scale warehouse. 2MW as skuser estimated doesn't seem impossible to me and 2MW will not power a small city, it's just 1 small commercial data center.

The thing you guys don't realize is while you think you may have ROI'd (sy yours is coming in 2 weeks), you really havn't unless you've cashed out and its in your bank account.

I can reach a ROI in terms of BTC spent and BTC I have received from LTCGear that's in my wallet. It's not like the payouts from LTCGear are credits on my account with them, they're BTC payments to my wallet. Why does it have to be converted back to fiat and "in your bank account"?
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 09, 2014, 07:04:09 AM
You guys can do the math, there is no way there is this much hash power. We're talking massive scale warehouse, which most likely doesn't exist. The power alone could probably power a small city.

How do you figure "there is no way" there could be that much hash power? There's 0.8 megawatts worth of miners on the floor above me (296 Spondoolies SP30s to be exact) and they're not in a massive scale warehouse. 2MW as skuser estimated doesn't seem impossible to me and 2MW will not power a small city, it's just 1 small commercial data center.

Exactly, it is possible with the right know how and preparations and since chris is in this business for over a year it is even believeable - i would still like to visit him xD
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: FreeJack2k on October 09, 2014, 05:06:53 PM
Just thought I'd chime in and mention that if you look at the hashrate distribution list on Pooler's site, "Solo Miner #1" has had a very significant footprint on the Litecoin network since May (currently around 113 GH/s). It seems entirely within the realm of possibility that this is Beekeeper's ASIC farm (part of it, anyway). It appears that he announced conversion to ASIC happening in the first week of June...he was probably deploying it in the week leading up to that announcement. I had been watching those solo addresses for quite a while, just to see what the behavior of the miners was with regard to selling or hoarding.

In reading through his thread, it is abundantly clear from his posting that he's most definitely an engineer and knows his stuff. He's actually produced hardware successfully in the past, which people have received and used. So I think that alone casts significant doubt on the ponzi worries. He's got a pretty long track record, he didn't just appear out of nowhere. Also, typically in a ponzi scheme you never have real control over your income - they put it in a "balance" on their website and you end up needing to manually request withdrawals, which puts the outflow of funds in their control. Beekeeper actually pays out weekly directly to your wallet. It's a significant difference.

For me, it's a worry that his site uses whoisguard to obscure his registration details and we don't really know who he is, where he is or anything else that would enable anyone to seek satisfaction, if things went south. On the flip side, I can also understand why someone operating a very large mining farm would not want strangers to know their whereabouts or true identity.

Personally, I prefer to own my hardware and if my hardware were being hosted by someone, I'd want to see it. I'm not wild about cloud mining...I think it is centralizing hashrate way too much.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: organizer on October 09, 2014, 09:05:27 PM
On the flip side, I can also understand why someone operating a very large mining farm would not want strangers to know their whereabouts or true identity.

Which is the true dilemma, I think both sides of the argument can make plausible "on the flip side" arguments for or against it...

Also, just regarding the ROI thing... many do understand that how the community uses ROI isn't the true meaning of it... also, I haven't risked a single bit of fiat on this stuff, aside from my dumb Alpha deposit which I took a 30% hit on... fuckers... but as long as it's in my wallet... I don't personally think it needs to be in my bank..
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Linger on October 09, 2014, 10:33:51 PM
yeah I agree with you organizer, I rather not know too much information about the plant but instead just get paid on time and correctly each week.
kind of like a silent investor whos always paid! LTCgear  FTW!
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: cloudminer on October 10, 2014, 04:32:18 AM
Just thought I'd chime in and mention that if you look at the hashrate distribution list on Pooler's site, "Solo Miner #1" has had a very significant footprint on the Litecoin network since May (currently around 113 GH/s). It seems entirely within the realm of possibility that this is Beekeeper's ASIC farm (part of it, anyway). It appears that he announced conversion to ASIC happening in the first week of June...he was probably deploying it in the week leading up to that announcement. I had been watching those solo addresses for quite a while, just to see what the behavior of the miners was with regard to selling or hoarding.

Nice input!!  :) :)

Found this information to be really helpful!
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Cookdesk on October 10, 2014, 06:56:20 AM
Just thought I'd chime in and mention that if you look at the hashrate distribution list on Pooler's site, "Solo Miner #1" has had a very significant footprint on the Litecoin network since May (currently around 113 GH/s). It seems entirely within the realm of possibility that this is Beekeeper's ASIC farm (part of it, anyway). It appears that he announced conversion to ASIC happening in the first week of June...he was probably deploying it in the week leading up to that announcement. I had been watching those solo addresses for quite a while, just to see what the behavior of the miners was with regard to selling or hoarding.

In reading through his thread, it is abundantly clear from his posting that he's most definitely an engineer and knows his stuff. He's actually produced hardware successfully in the past, which people have received and used. So I think that alone casts significant doubt on the ponzi worries. He's got a pretty long track record, he didn't just appear out of nowhere. Also, typically in a ponzi scheme you never have real control over your income - they put it in a "balance" on their website and you end up needing to manually request withdrawals, which puts the outflow of funds in their control. Beekeeper actually pays out weekly directly to your wallet. It's a significant difference.

For me, it's a worry that his site uses whoisguard to obscure his registration details and we don't really know who he is, where he is or anything else that would enable anyone to seek satisfaction, if things went south. On the flip side, I can also understand why someone operating a very large mining farm would not want strangers to know their whereabouts or true identity.

Personally, I prefer to own my hardware and if my hardware were being hosted by someone, I'd want to see it. I'm not wild about cloud mining...I think it is centralizing hashrate way too much.

This is very useful – thank you.

I agree the argument around privacy could be spun both ways.

Without being too generalist, the personality is of many engineers is also not so extravert and many (like academics) can be very focussed on their work or product and I mean the technical aspects of it rather than what they see as the frippery surrounding it (i.e. website, marketing, promotion and even in some cases the running of the actual business).

This may well be the case with Chris, perhaps his thinking is – let me focus on the product for the good of all and I will also be very straight down the line (which he completely has) around payments and the things that really matter.  The website marketing etc. can wait until later or not bother at all.

As an aside it is interesting that many of us, myself included, place a reasonable amount of store around such things… particularly when looking at LTCG for the first time.  I would say we can all conclude though that we know the kind of $ volume Chris is handling so we can also conclude it would be super easy for him to employ someone to create an all singing, all dancing website or do it himself.  I would say the fact that he has not is in fact supportive of the legitimacy of his venture – if you were just in business to try and drive huge volume and eventually rip people off, surely this would be one of the first things to attend to.

I also think the referral program could be spun both ways.  If the above is true, maybe Chris just thought I can’t be bothered with the activities of promoting and handling the admin for this but I am happy to pay a charge for sales and effectively outsource this to the community and I can just automate the back end – which he has done.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: ATCkit on October 10, 2014, 11:43:21 AM
well said. Word of mouth is always the best advertisement.
 Chris seems to have extremely good technically skills.  He has used the "build it and they will come" philosophy by focusing on his strengths and thus providing a superior product that people began speaking about way back last spring. In fact, atlosas ( whom we all know from many other threads we are all on) had me convinced as early as April. I even put in an order at the time but my country's banking system would not let me send a wire to Romania. So I had to wait until mined enough btc to start buying. Maybe i should have just bought btc instead and invested last spring?
Anyway, I am in now and very happy with the weekly payouts.
I would far rather have a great technical guy and good team helping him set up a datacentre than having the focus on a glitzy web site. I imagine that Chris is  superior with numbers too...and is making a profit on the anniversary shares. I have a feeling that he is able to minimize his input costs a great deal ( compared to his competitors) by being the developer of his equipment. He may well have a lower profit margin too...and makes his $$ by producing volumes which he is able to continually sell because we all like his payouts :) and we all keep spreading the word about happy we are with his payouts.
 I would not be to surprised if he is able to lower his selling price even farther when the competition finally catches up to his $/ghs. Yup i feel that by January we will all be talking $/ghs instead of $/mhs. Having said all that, some competitor will eventually be able to come up with a business model similar Chris'. That will be good as i think there will come a point where Chris may not be able to keep up with the demand for his service  as his reputation and the industry as whole continues to grow. I think he will survive when that competitor comes along because he will be well established and continually upgrading his existing infrastructure with the most efficient equipment in order to maintain his piece of the pie. That will be good for all of us...ie: I mean Chris being in this for the long haul and competitors who can fill the demand when Chris has finally reached the optimal size that allows him to maintain an efficiently price product without extending himself and his team beyond their realistic and reasonable limits. Only time will tell. We all have to take an informed and calculated risk...or venture nothing and gain nothing. I think everyone of us has lost some money with the new developers we invested in last winter. It's really good to have a developer (and a couple other cloud mining services too) who has something that is helping us get back on track to break even faster and start making some profits again. From late winter through to August was a pretty bleak period for mining. Let's hope that is behind us now.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Larry W on October 12, 2014, 12:34:19 PM
marcellogreen. What are your thoughts after hearing so many other opinions / information / facts. I feel Chris is simply ahead of the game by several months which is miles and miles in this space.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: cashman on October 12, 2014, 01:52:39 PM
It looks like Bee is at the forefront on scrypt coins.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: skuser on October 12, 2014, 03:05:09 PM
I am pessimistic about this. His latest option to automatically convert dividends to shares implies he can grow the farm by 15% per week? Without counting in new orders? The only reason I can see is to slow down the pressure on dividend payouts growth.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 12, 2014, 03:29:08 PM
I am pessimistic about this. His latest option to automatically convert dividends to shares implies he can grow the farm by 15% per week? Without counting in new orders? The only reason I can see is to slow down the pressure on dividend payouts growth.

I imagine most people are still cashing out, I know I am.

It was a feature requested by users, he isn't making people use it. Some people prefer to reinvest some weeks, I imagine this will reduce stock we see on a day to day basis during the week. We'll know more this week.

It is extremely useful for "smaller" users as they can now buy shares at the same cost as everyone else.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on October 12, 2014, 03:39:50 PM
I am pessimistic about this. His latest option to automatically convert dividends to shares implies he can grow the farm by 15% per week? Without counting in new orders? The only reason I can see is to slow down the pressure on dividend payouts growth.

I imagine most people are still cashing out, I know I am.

It was a feature requested by users, he isn't making people use it. Some people prefer to reinvest some weeks, I imagine this will reduce stock we see on a day to day basis during the week. We'll know more this week.

It is extremely useful for "smaller" users as they can now buy shares at the same cost as everyone else.

It also depends on his scale.  If you assume that his data center is full utilized by all his customers then he would have to physically grow it to keep up with demand.  But if his data center is fully build out months ago and his customers only utilize a fraction of it then he doesn't have to do anything buy enable share conversion.  It could be that he has been running this data center for some time and only provided public customers a small share of the data center and he keeps the rest for himself and private investors.  Now as he is moving to a new product he is allowing customers to take on a larger share of it as he builds out a 2nd gen data center.

This is hypothetical. And only my theory.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 12, 2014, 03:48:30 PM
I am pessimistic about this. His latest option to automatically convert dividends to shares implies he can grow the farm by 15% per week? Without counting in new orders? The only reason I can see is to slow down the pressure on dividend payouts growth.

I imagine most people are still cashing out, I know I am.

It was a feature requested by users, he isn't making people use it. Some people prefer to reinvest some weeks, I imagine this will reduce stock we see on a day to day basis during the week. We'll know more this week.

It is extremely useful for "smaller" users as they can now buy shares at the same cost as everyone else.

It also depends on his scale.  If you assume that his data center is full utilized by all his customers then he would have to physically grow it to keep up with demand.  But if his data center is fully build out months ago and his customers only utilize a fraction of it then he doesn't have to do anything buy enable share conversion.  It could be that he has been running this data center for some time and only provided public customers a small share of the data center and he keeps the rest for himself and private investors.  Now as he is moving to a new product he is allowing customers to take on a larger share of it as he builds out a 2nd gen data center.

This is hypothetical. And only my theory.

I agree completely, I posted that 5 or 6 weeks ago.

There is no way he is giving away a full weeks coin for a miner that isn't running already.

It's far more likely the miner has been running for a few weeks to subsidize cost and burn the miner in prior to Chris "selling" the hashing. I "would guess" he is keeping his farm around 50% subscription. This would give him room to allow for multiplications as well as inventory growth week to week.

There is also little chance he could be at 100% subscribed given the gross instability we are seeing across the market with Scrypt ASIC miners.

He has mentioned multiple data centers separated by some distance, he has also mentioned "splitting/expanding" "his" datacenter.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 13, 2014, 11:57:53 AM
I am pessimistic about this. His latest option to automatically convert dividends to shares implies he can grow the farm by 15% per week? Without counting in new orders? The only reason I can see is to slow down the pressure on dividend payouts growth.

I imagine most people are still cashing out, I know I am.

It was a feature requested by users, he isn't making people use it. Some people prefer to reinvest some weeks, I imagine this will reduce stock we see on a day to day basis during the week. We'll know more this week.

It is extremely useful for "smaller" users as they can now buy shares at the same cost as everyone else.

It also depends on his scale.  If you assume that his data center is full utilized by all his customers then he would have to physically grow it to keep up with demand.  But if his data center is fully build out months ago and his customers only utilize a fraction of it then he doesn't have to do anything buy enable share conversion.  It could be that he has been running this data center for some time and only provided public customers a small share of the data center and he keeps the rest for himself and private investors.  Now as he is moving to a new product he is allowing customers to take on a larger share of it as he builds out a 2nd gen data center.

This is hypothetical. And only my theory.

I agree completely, I posted that 5 or 6 weeks ago.

There is no way he is giving away a full weeks coin for a miner that isn't running already.

It's far more likely the miner has been running for a few weeks to subsidize cost and burn the miner in prior to Chris "selling" the hashing. I "would guess" he is keeping his farm around 50% subscription. This would give him room to allow for multiplications as well as inventory growth week to week.

There is also little chance he could be at 100% subscribed given the gross instability we are seeing across the market with Scrypt ASIC miners.

He has mentioned multiple data centers separated by some distance, he has also mentioned "splitting/expanding" "his" datacenter.

Makes sense. Thanks for your theory. Sounds very logic to me.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Ignition75 on October 14, 2014, 02:00:07 AM
I would like to send a word of warning to people, last night I purchased a Tricoin M10 pack, I opted to pay with Darkcoin, with CoinPayments.

After the transaction confirmed "942366396aa4b4324c1657e92fac4ebfe0c1676aca61837026050e6b0fb7fd07" the order wouldn't leave my cart at LTC Gear, it just stayed there.

I also had other things to purchase, this time with Bitcoin, so I removed the Tricoin M10 pack from my cart and carried on purchasing some LTC Asics with BTC.

Those transactions went through fine.

After everything had confirmed, I noticed my original Tricoin M10 pack wasn't on my account, even though I had paid for it with CoinPayments.

I emailed LTC Gear with the CoinPayments payment ID, asking where my order had gone, this was the response I got:

Hi,

Excuse me, but it did not seem that you bought any. Your both orders were placed on shares.

Best Regards,
Chris


So right now, I'm in Limbo.  I have paid for a Tricoin M10 pack however there is no acknowledgement from LTC Gear that the order took place.

I asked CoinPayments for the details and I got this as follows:

Transaction ID:    942366396aa4b4324c1657e92fac4ebfe0c1676aca61837026050e6b0fb7fd07
Payment Address:    XpmhdLPT124JaLMMk1bsmnCoe2C9qtPqKm (addr_4104)
Transaction Status:    Complete
Amount Expected:    600.47300500 DRK
Amount Received:    600.47300500 DRK with 5 confirms
Time Created:    October 13, 2014 10:29:06am
Time Expires:    October 13, 2014 12:29:06pm
Time Completed:    October 13, 2014 11:16:19am


I also asked CoinPayments for the actual LTCGear order number, because right now LTCGear have no record of this order.

I'm a little worried to be honest, I'll keep you informed.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 14, 2014, 02:28:07 AM
I would like to send a word of warning to people, last night I purchased a Tricoin M10 pack, I opted to pay with Darkcoin, with CoinPayments.

After the transaction confirmed "942366396aa4b4324c1657e92fac4ebfe0c1676aca61837026050e6b0fb7fd07" the order wouldn't leave my cart at LTC Gear, it just stayed there.

I also had other things to purchase, this time with Bitcoin, so I removed the Tricoin M10 pack from my cart and carried on purchasing some LTC Asics with BTC.

Those transactions went through fine.

After everything had confirmed, I noticed my original Tricoin M10 pack wasn't on my account, even though I had paid for it with CoinPayments.

I emailed LTC Gear with the CoinPayments payment ID, asking where my order had gone, this was the response I got:

Hi,

Excuse me, but it did not seem that you bought any. Your both orders were placed on shares.

Best Regards,
Chris


So right now, I'm in Limbo.  I have paid for a Tricoin M10 pack however there is no acknowledgement from LTC Gear that the order took place.

I asked CoinPayments for the details and I got this as follows:

Transaction ID:    942366396aa4b4324c1657e92fac4ebfe0c1676aca61837026050e6b0fb7fd07
Payment Address:    XpmhdLPT124JaLMMk1bsmnCoe2C9qtPqKm (addr_4104)
Transaction Status:    Complete
Amount Expected:    600.47300500 DRK
Amount Received:    600.47300500 DRK with 5 confirms
Time Created:    October 13, 2014 10:29:06am
Time Expires:    October 13, 2014 12:29:06pm
Time Completed:    October 13, 2014 11:16:19am


I also asked CoinPayments for the actual LTCGear order number, because right now LTCGear have no record of this order.

I'm a little worried to be honest, I'll keep you informed.

Chris will take care of it, it may take a few days but he'll get it straightened out.

Did you email them or use the contact form on the website?
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: kingscrown on October 14, 2014, 02:30:46 AM
anybodys in contact with the owner of LTCgear?
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Ignition75 on October 14, 2014, 02:38:00 AM
I would like to send a word of warning to people, last night I purchased a Tricoin M10 pack, I opted to pay with Darkcoin, with CoinPayments.

After the transaction confirmed "942366396aa4b4324c1657e92fac4ebfe0c1676aca61837026050e6b0fb7fd07" the order wouldn't leave my cart at LTC Gear, it just stayed there.

I also had other things to purchase, this time with Bitcoin, so I removed the Tricoin M10 pack from my cart and carried on purchasing some LTC Asics with BTC.

Those transactions went through fine.

After everything had confirmed, I noticed my original Tricoin M10 pack wasn't on my account, even though I had paid for it with CoinPayments.

I emailed LTC Gear with the CoinPayments payment ID, asking where my order had gone, this was the response I got:

Hi,

Excuse me, but it did not seem that you bought any. Your both orders were placed on shares.

Best Regards,
Chris


So right now, I'm in Limbo.  I have paid for a Tricoin M10 pack however there is no acknowledgement from LTC Gear that the order took place.

I asked CoinPayments for the details and I got this as follows:

Transaction ID:    942366396aa4b4324c1657e92fac4ebfe0c1676aca61837026050e6b0fb7fd07
Payment Address:    XpmhdLPT124JaLMMk1bsmnCoe2C9qtPqKm (addr_4104)
Transaction Status:    Complete
Amount Expected:    600.47300500 DRK
Amount Received:    600.47300500 DRK with 5 confirms
Time Created:    October 13, 2014 10:29:06am
Time Expires:    October 13, 2014 12:29:06pm
Time Completed:    October 13, 2014 11:16:19am


I also asked CoinPayments for the actual LTCGear order number, because right now LTCGear have no record of this order.

I'm a little worried to be honest, I'll keep you informed.

Chris will take care of it, it may take a few days but he'll get it straightened out.

Did you email them or use the contact form on the website?

I used the contact form...
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Ignition75 on October 15, 2014, 10:30:32 AM
This issue has now been resolved, Chris added the Tricoin M10 pack to my account within the last hour.

Good stuff.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: cl4ud1u on October 15, 2014, 04:32:31 PM
It`s getting stressing for me too.
Here is my order on 11th october. http://ltcgear.com/cart/checkout/order-received/?order=7741&key=order_54380d9038045
The 3 entries are from me : https://blockchain.info/address/1KUgJUZ5EsCDpst6k9g2aAtn2FJvoNCjNG

Already wrote to him 2 or 3 times...
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: kitano on October 15, 2014, 04:38:10 PM
It`s getting stressing for me too.
Here is my order on 11th october. http://ltcgear.com/cart/checkout/order-received/?order=7741&key=order_54380d9038045
The 3 entries are from me : https://blockchain.info/address/1KUgJUZ5EsCDpst6k9g2aAtn2FJvoNCjNG

Already wrote to him 2 or 3 times...
It seems you paid 2.31187542 BTC, but the correct amount of your order is 2.31287542.
EDIT: If you sent these amounts: 0.00906078 BTC, 0.00515667 BTC, you have to recontact the support.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: cl4ud1u on October 15, 2014, 04:44:33 PM
Yes, i missed the 0.001 fee from btc-e
payed another 0.00906078 BTC 5 hours later after 2.31187542 BTC
and another 0.00515667 BTC on the 2014-10-15 06:20:03
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: cl4ud1u on October 15, 2014, 04:47:56 PM
It`s getting stressing for me too.
Here is my order on 11th october. http://ltcgear.com/cart/checkout/order-received/?order=7741&key=order_54380d9038045
The 3 entries are from me : https://blockchain.info/address/1KUgJUZ5EsCDpst6k9g2aAtn2FJvoNCjNG

Already wrote to him 2 or 3 times...
It seems you paid 2.31187542 BTC, but the correct amount of your order is 2.31287542.
EDIT: If you sent these amounts: 0.00906078 BTC, 0.00515667 BTC, you have to recontact the support.
i did recontact him and noi change...
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Larry W on October 15, 2014, 04:51:43 PM
No need to stress. He will get back to you. It just takes time. Believe me.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 15, 2014, 11:30:32 PM
It`s getting stressing for me too.
Here is my order on 11th october. http://ltcgear.com/cart/checkout/order-received/?order=7741&key=order_54380d9038045
The 3 entries are from me : https://blockchain.info/address/1KUgJUZ5EsCDpst6k9g2aAtn2FJvoNCjNG

Already wrote to him 2 or 3 times...
It seems you paid 2.31187542 BTC, but the correct amount of your order is 2.31287542.
EDIT: If you sent these amounts: 0.00906078 BTC, 0.00515667 BTC, you have to recontact the support.
i did recontact him and noi change...

Don't worry. He will answer you soon or later. My friend Ignition75 has even bigger problem and he solved all. Just be patient because he has a lot of things to do.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: cl4ud1u on October 16, 2014, 06:40:50 AM
Problem solved. Thanks LTCgear.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: UPSCarz on October 18, 2014, 12:32:03 PM
Anyone here ever have trouble with affiliate links?
Someone bought some packages under my link, they confirmed that the cookie had my link in it and it never showed up under my affiliates..
Of course Chris isn't emailing me back for some reason.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 18, 2014, 03:41:14 PM
Anyone here ever have trouble with affiliate links?
Someone bought some packages under my link, they confirmed that the cookie had my link in it and it never showed up under my affiliates..
Of course Chris isn't emailing me back for some reason.

Did their order switch to processing?

Did they pay the exact amount?
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: UPSCarz on October 18, 2014, 04:30:56 PM
Anyone here ever have trouble with affiliate links?
Someone bought some packages under my link, they confirmed that the cookie had my link in it and it never showed up under my affiliates..
Of course Chris isn't emailing me back for some reason.

Did their order switch to processing?

Did they pay the exact amount?

Yes and yes
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: thecrazyminer on October 18, 2014, 11:43:01 PM
Anyone here ever have trouble with affiliate links?
Someone bought some packages under my link, they confirmed that the cookie had my link in it and it never showed up under my affiliates..
Of course Chris isn't emailing me back for some reason.

Did their order switch to processing?

Did they pay the exact amount?

Yes and yes
How large was the order?
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: thorp on October 19, 2014, 12:06:52 AM
Ponzi scheme red flags, from the U.S. SEC.

Quote
What are some Ponzi scheme "red flags"?

Many Ponzi schemes share common characteristics. Look for these warning signs:

  • High investment returns with little or no risk. Every investment carries some degree of risk, and investments yielding higher returns typically involve more risk. Be highly suspicious of any "guaranteed" investment opportunity.
  • Overly consistent returns. Investment values tend to go up and down over time, especially those offering potentially high returns. Be suspect of an investment that continues to generate regular, positive returns regardless of overall market conditions.
  • Unregistered investments. Ponzi schemes typically involve investments that have not been registered with the SEC or with state regulators. Registration is important because it provides investors with access to key information about the company's management, products, services, and finances.
  • Unlicensed sellers. Federal and state securities laws require investment professionals and their firms to be licensed or registered. Most Ponzi schemes involve unlicensed individuals or unregistered firms.
  • Secretive and/or complex strategies. Avoiding investments you do not understand, or for which you cannot get complete information, is a good rule of thumb.
  • Issues with paperwork. Do not accept excuses regarding why you cannot review information about an investment in writing. Also, account statement errors and inconsistencies may be signs that funds are not being invested as promised.
  • Difficulty receiving payments. Be suspicious if you do not receive a payment or have difficulty cashing out your investment. Keep in mind that Ponzi scheme promoters routinely encourage participants to "roll over" investments and sometimes promise returns offering even higher returns on the amount rolled over.

The ones most applicable here are high investment returns with little or no risk; overly consistent returns; secretive and/or complex strategies; and (mostly earlier on) difficulty receiving payments.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 19, 2014, 02:52:13 AM
Ponzi scheme red flags, from the U.S. SEC.

Quote
What are some Ponzi scheme "red flags"?

Many Ponzi schemes share common characteristics. Look for these warning signs:

  • High investment returns with little or no risk. Every investment carries some degree of risk, and investments yielding higher returns typically involve more risk. Be highly suspicious of any "guaranteed" investment opportunity.
  • Overly consistent returns. Investment values tend to go up and down over time, especially those offering potentially high returns. Be suspect of an investment that continues to generate regular, positive returns regardless of overall market conditions.
  • Unregistered investments. Ponzi schemes typically involve investments that have not been registered with the SEC or with state regulators. Registration is important because it provides investors with access to key information about the company's management, products, services, and finances.
  • Unlicensed sellers. Federal and state securities laws require investment professionals and their firms to be licensed or registered. Most Ponzi schemes involve unlicensed individuals or unregistered firms.
  • Secretive and/or complex strategies. Avoiding investments you do not understand, or for which you cannot get complete information, is a good rule of thumb.
  • Issues with paperwork. Do not accept excuses regarding why you cannot review information about an investment in writing. Also, account statement errors and inconsistencies may be signs that funds are not being invested as promised.
  • Difficulty receiving payments. Be suspicious if you do not receive a payment or have difficulty cashing out your investment. Keep in mind that Ponzi scheme promoters routinely encourage participants to "roll over" investments and sometimes promise returns offering even higher returns on the amount rolled over.

The ones most applicable here are high investment returns with little or no risk; overly consistent returns; secretive and/or complex strategies; and (mostly earlier on) difficulty receiving payments.

How do those apply to LTCGear?

You buy mining hashing, you get mining hashing. These rates of return are consistent with mining profitability for shares purchased.

Chris/Bee is a little secretive but no more so than any other ASIC manufacturer to date.

I've never read about an issue with receiving payment or credit that wasn't resolved within a few days.

Maybe come up with some original or factual instead of overly vague blanket statements.

There are reasons to be concerned but you didn't really hit any of them.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: cashman on October 19, 2014, 03:38:15 AM
I just wish i was friends with Bee in person and could visit his farm i would max out my credit cards for cash advances lol to buy shares.

Another crazy thing is some people on here are making 1000's of dollars a week imagine how much Bee is making.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on October 19, 2014, 03:51:31 AM
I just wish i was friends with Bee in person and could visit his farm i would max out my credit cards for cash advances lol to buy shares.

Another crazy thing is some people on here are making 1000's of dollars a week imagine how much Bee is making.

Bee has been reliable.  There is nothing complicated about payouts -- he is very transparent with how it is calculated.  We could use more transparency on other issues but we definitely aren't in the dark with how much we get paid and when that payout happens.

As Sukarti mentioned, we also are buying hashpower. That is how we know what to expect in terms of payout.

My final point is that there is no evidence that it is a ponzi scheme.  There is no way he could make payouts for 1+ year if it was a ponzi.  He can't generate $ (which are completely fungible) vs. LTC (fixed, noninflationary, must acquire actual coins).  It just doesn't add up no matter how much people yell ponzi I don't see any hard data other than data indicating it isn't.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: cashman on October 19, 2014, 04:08:31 AM
I just wish i was friends with Bee in person and could visit his farm i would max out my credit cards for cash advances lol to buy shares.

Another crazy thing is some people on here are making 1000's of dollars a week imagine how much Bee is making.

Bee has been reliable.  There is nothing complicated about payouts -- he is very transparent with how it is calculated.  We could use more transparency on other issues but we definitely aren't in the dark with how much we get paid and when that payout happens.

As Sukarti mentioned, we also are buying hashpower. That is how we know what to expect in terms of payout.

My final point is that there is no evidence that it is a ponzi scheme.  There is no way he could make payouts for 1+ year if it was a ponzi.  He can't generate $ (which are completely fungible) vs. LTC (fixed, noninflationary, must acquire actual coins).  It just doesn't add up no matter how much people yell ponzi I don't see any hard data other than data indicating it isn't.

I think he is legit but i'm just saying if i was 100% sure i would jump in and bet my bottom dollar :)
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 19, 2014, 05:20:53 AM
My biggest fear is the near endless shares for sale in the past 30 days. Prior to that it was "sort of" hard to get hashing power.

There has been over 4k orders since the ASICs were released 2 months ago. The last 30 days (3k orders ago) you could include more than one miner in your order.

Unless A TON of people screwed up their orders that is considerable hashing even if he is spreading it across LTC/FTC/DRK/VTC & Multipools.

Shares seem to be going out of stock again more regularly past 2 days, guess we'll see how things progress into next week.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 19, 2014, 01:29:03 PM
My biggest fear is the near endless shares for sale in the past 30 days. Prior to that it was "sort of" hard to get hashing power.

There has been over 4k orders since the ASICs were released 2 months ago. The last 30 days (3k orders ago) you could include more than one miner in your order.

Unless A TON of people screwed up their orders that is considerable hashing even if he is spreading it across LTC/FTC/DRK/VTC & Multipools.

Shares seem to be going out of stock again more regularly past 2 days, guess we'll see how things progress into next week.

You have the same fear with many others now, even me. But I could assure you a little bit that no way all 3k orders go to processing mode. Myself has placed over 10 orders and didn't manage to pay it on time so I just ignore these.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 19, 2014, 01:46:55 PM
My biggest fear is the near endless shares for sale in the past 30 days. Prior to that it was "sort of" hard to get hashing power.

There has been over 4k orders since the ASICs were released 2 months ago. The last 30 days (3k orders ago) you could include more than one miner in your order.

Unless A TON of people screwed up their orders that is considerable hashing even if he is spreading it across LTC/FTC/DRK/VTC & Multipools.

Shares seem to be going out of stock again more regularly past 2 days, guess we'll see how things progress into next week.

You have the same fear with many others now, even me. But I could assure you a little bit that no way all 3k orders go to processing mode. Myself has placed over 10 orders and didn't manage to pay it on time so I just ignore these.

I agree that not all orders fulfill, I have a handful I have screwed up on or forgot to apply the coupon. You have the 830x and mods to consider as well.

However I think that is easily offset by the quantity orders that have been available for 3/4 of the order time. I've personally made a lot of 2x buy's with a few orders much bigger than that.

Hashrates pulled off coinwars

FTC - 106GH
DRK - 65GH
VTC - 2GH
LTC - 1030GH

It's possible he has hashing at his own multipool or any number of different multipools, most of which will outperform LTC on average.

I guess I'll just keep running on hope  ;) And be grateful I have full ROI in my wallet already  8)

Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: skuser on October 20, 2014, 08:27:14 AM
Some good observations here, except the idea of hashrate hidden in multipools, because it would have to show up in currencies hashrates anyway which is not.
I've been watching order numbers and shopping cart page closely recent few days and my estimate is he could have sold almost 200 GH/s of hashrate within last 7 days only.  :o

Each pyramid scheme ends when dividends due become larger than current incoming cash-flow,which is not that hard to get currently because the orders are pouring in. Also new option of converting dividends to new shares can help to slow down the pressure for payouts. Next 2 weeks should be still OK, however I think any kind of 'multiplication' at this levels will be unbearable anymore.

And please don't argue that this is not Ponzi because Chris is kind and pays on time. Better give me info what secret currencies is he mining with hundreds of GH/s because LTC's hashrate hasn't almost changed for month. I understand that this project surely started as serious one, but various unknown reasons (huge income of anniversary orders at the end of august and sudden inflow of big money?) can spoil man's mind....


Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 20, 2014, 08:36:59 AM
Some good observations here, except the idea of hashrate hidden in multipools, because it would have to show up in currencies hashrates anyway which is not.
I've been watching order numbers and shopping cart page closely recent few days and my estimate is he could have sold almost 200 GH/s of hashrate within last 7 days only.  :o

Each pyramid scheme ends when dividends due become larger than current incoming cash-flow,which is not that hard to get currently because the orders are pouring in. Also new option of converting dividends to new shares can help to slow down the pressure for payouts. Next 2 weeks should be still OK, however I think any kind of 'multiplication' at this levels will be unbearable anymore.

And please don't argue that this is not Ponzi because Chris is kind and pays on time. Better give me info what secret currencies is he mining with hundreds of GH/s because LTC's hashrate hasn't almost changed for month. I understand that this project surely started as serious one, but various unknown reasons (huge income of anniversary orders at the end of august and sudden inflow of big money?) can spoil man's mind....

Yes I agree to most of your concerns, but your first reason is somehow unclear. Tell me first how did you calculate the 200ghs within 7 days?
If the number you're imagining is unreal so none of your concerns are legit, IMHO.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: skuser on October 20, 2014, 09:48:18 AM

Yes I agree to most of your concerns, but your first reason is somehow unclear. Tell me first how did you calculate the 200ghs within 7 days?
If the number you're imagining is unreal so none of your concerns are legit, IMHO.

Today at midnight GMT he added 77 items as stock - now we are at 49. So in the 9 hours he sold 28 pcs, he will have very bad day if he doesn't sell 100. Of course lot's can be failed orders, but how many? 20% ? At these numbers we are at 100 GH/s per week, but the after dividend days are much stronger in sales - On dividend day, Oct 17th he also added 77 pcs in stock but sold them within half day and then restocked many times during the weekend. He could have sold about 80 GH/s just during the weekend.

Important thing is I am only making assumptions based on data I can see. If the in stock amount on the page is just random number I have no other proof. The same with order numbers. Go figure.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 20, 2014, 12:28:25 PM

Yes I agree to most of your concerns, but your first reason is somehow unclear. Tell me first how did you calculate the 200ghs within 7 days?
If the number you're imagining is unreal so none of your concerns are legit, IMHO.

Today at midnight GMT he added 77 items as stock - now we are at 49. So in the 9 hours he sold 28 pcs, he will have very bad day if he doesn't sell 100. Of course lot's can be failed orders, but how many? 20% ? At these numbers we are at 100 GH/s per week, but the after dividend days are much stronger in sales - On dividend day, Oct 17th he also added 77 pcs in stock but sold them within half day and then restocked many times during the weekend. He could have sold about 80 GH/s just during the weekend.

Important thing is I am only making assumptions based on data I can see. If the in stock amount on the page is just random number I have no other proof. The same with order numbers. Go figure.

Let's me show you my calc:
I checked my order history and on 26th September I got the order #60xx. As today I see some 90xx order, so 3k new orders for 25 days.
Let's assume that 1/2 of these are "ghost" orders, so still 1500 orders are executed.
Let's assume again that 2/3 of these true orders are 1k6 shares, so the new hash added to the network is 0.16 * 1000 = 160ghs.
Yes you are right that we don't see much power added to the network last 3 weeks, so it rises some red flags.

But let's see the problem from other perspectives: Chris said that he doesn't mine LTC alone, so these 160ghs power could be well divided in multipool and some at doge. I didn't research further but I agreed that some of your warnings are legit but it can be explained and this doesn't reach a critical situation yet.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: skuser on October 20, 2014, 02:47:26 PM
Ok I think you're bit pessimistic about ghost orders ratio however as for dogecoin mining it is completely ineffective due to huge difficulty caused by start of ltc/doge merged mining. Therefore for sure he isn't mining dogecoin...and there aren't any other cryptos with substantial hashrate you could hide even 100 ghs. Btw as we are talking the number of in stock items dropped to 32, so today almost 8ghs sold...If you try to create ghost order you'll notice number of items doesn't drop if you don't pay for order so we can probably lower ghost orders ratio...
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: hawkfish007 on October 20, 2014, 03:01:22 PM
And please don't argue that this is not Ponzi because Chris is kind and pays on time. Better give me info what secret currencies is he mining with hundreds of GH/s because LTC's hashrate hasn't almost changed for month. I understand that this project surely started as serious one, but various unknown reasons (huge income of anniversary orders at the end of august and sudden inflow of big money?) can spoil man's mind....

This is just my observation, below is taken from bitcoinwisdom, Aug 1 network hashrate was 715,220 MH, Oct 19 network hashrate was 1,045 GH. Chris started offering the anniversary pack mid August and mentioned that with new generation of Asics quantity is not an issue anymore. In 2 1/2 months, network added at least 350 GH of hash rate. Now, who is adding this additional hashrate. As far as I know, KNC hasn't finished shipping their batch 1 yet and other manufacturer aren't selling anything and prepping themselves to sell $5/GH in December.

Oct 19 2014 36,510 0.96% 1,045 GH/s
Oct 16 2014 36,164 -1.53% 1,035 GH/s
Oct 12 2014 36,726 4.40% 1,052 GH/s
Oct 09 2014 35,179 -4.95% 1,007 GH/s
Oct 05 2014 37,011 2.18% 1,060 GH/s
Oct 02 2014 36,220 2.47% 1,037 GH/s
Sep 29 2014 35,348 1.61% 1,012 GH/s
Sep 25 2014 34,787 8.25% 996,051 MH/s
Sep 22 2014 32,136 -3.21% 920,152 MH/s
Sep 18 2014 33,203 0.52% 950,704 MH/s
Sep 15 2014 33,030 16.62% 945,761 MH/s
Sep 12 2014 28,323 0.71% 810,965 MH/s
Sep 08 2014 28,124 1.17% 805,267 MH/s
Sep 05 2014 27,799 2.87% 795,979 MH/s
Sep 01 2014 27,024 -3.74% 773,787 MH/s
Aug 29 2014 28,073 -1.40% 803,825 MH/s
Aug 25 2014 28,472 1.21% 815,234 MH/s
Aug 22 2014 28,131 0.13% 805,473 MH/s
Aug 18 2014 28,094 -4.08% 804,414 MH/s
Aug 15 2014 29,290 4.73% 838,674 MH/s
Aug 11 2014 27,968 4.27% 800,815 MH/s
Aug 08 2014 26,824 9.82% 768,041 MH/s
Aug 05 2014 24,425 -2.22% 699,365 MH/s
Aug 01 2014 24,979 2.64% 715,220 MH/s
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 20, 2014, 03:23:29 PM
And please don't argue that this is not Ponzi because Chris is kind and pays on time. Better give me info what secret currencies is he mining with hundreds of GH/s because LTC's hashrate hasn't almost changed for month. I understand that this project surely started as serious one, but various unknown reasons (huge income of anniversary orders at the end of august and sudden inflow of big money?) can spoil man's mind....

This is just my observation, below is taken from bitcoinwisdom, Aug 1 network hashrate was 715,220 MH, Oct 19 network hashrate was 1,045 GH. Chris started offering the anniversary pack mid August and mentioned that with new generation of Asics quantity is not an issue anymore. In 2 1/2 months, network added at least 350 GH of hash rate. Now, who is adding this additional hashrate. As far as I know, KNC hasn't finished shipping their batch 1 yet and other manufacturer aren't selling anything and prepping themselves to sell $5/GH in December.

Oct 19 2014 36,510 0.96% 1,045 GH/s
Oct 16 2014 36,164 -1.53% 1,035 GH/s
Oct 12 2014 36,726 4.40% 1,052 GH/s
Oct 09 2014 35,179 -4.95% 1,007 GH/s
Oct 05 2014 37,011 2.18% 1,060 GH/s
Oct 02 2014 36,220 2.47% 1,037 GH/s
Sep 29 2014 35,348 1.61% 1,012 GH/s
Sep 25 2014 34,787 8.25% 996,051 MH/s
Sep 22 2014 32,136 -3.21% 920,152 MH/s
Sep 18 2014 33,203 0.52% 950,704 MH/s
Sep 15 2014 33,030 16.62% 945,761 MH/s
Sep 12 2014 28,323 0.71% 810,965 MH/s
Sep 08 2014 28,124 1.17% 805,267 MH/s
Sep 05 2014 27,799 2.87% 795,979 MH/s
Sep 01 2014 27,024 -3.74% 773,787 MH/s
Aug 29 2014 28,073 -1.40% 803,825 MH/s
Aug 25 2014 28,472 1.21% 815,234 MH/s
Aug 22 2014 28,131 0.13% 805,473 MH/s
Aug 18 2014 28,094 -4.08% 804,414 MH/s
Aug 15 2014 29,290 4.73% 838,674 MH/s
Aug 11 2014 27,968 4.27% 800,815 MH/s
Aug 08 2014 26,824 9.82% 768,041 MH/s
Aug 05 2014 24,425 -2.22% 699,365 MH/s
Aug 01 2014 24,979 2.64% 715,220 MH/s

KNC is having considerable quality control issues, it's unlikely they've added substantial hashpower unless they kept all the good chips for themselves.

Doge is not a consideration as it is merge mined with LTC now, there would be zero point in mining it directly.

Multipools could account for a considerable chunk of hash but not several hundred GH/s based on current alt profitability.

I would imagine most of the hashing is from Gridseed/Zeus(GAW)/LTCGear.

Please also remember that 100's of GH of old Gridseed/Zeus are pointless to run now so they are taken offline. An increase of 350GH to LTC requires alot more than 350GH of "new" miners to be brought online. We've also seen a considerable price decline since 8/5 (7$ to sub 4$).

Regarding order numbers it's entirely possible other competitors are attempting to empty Chris's Cart system to slow user adoption. He has crushed GAW sales to the point of them rolling out a whole new campaign in response to his anniversary pack.

There are lots of potential explanations, it's definitely not cut and dry.

Chris could easily alleviate some of these concerns with a simple video or a set of photographs if he wanted to but for whatever reason he has not.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: skuser on October 20, 2014, 04:48:45 PM
I can accept theory about huge farm created in august/september and then selling its hashrate. However at current sales pace this hashrate must have been already sold out while Chris had to be the only person in universe creating mining equiment.
As for replacement of old gridseed/zeus equipment,how about  A2 chip based 100 MHs miners which have been available to buy since May, currently at about $16/MHs and still within 180 ROI when mining just litecoin. I don't see too much space for hashrate drops caused by turning off old equipment. The same like nobody noticed turning off graphic cards.

Anyway without Chris response we can only keep guessing and waiting for another friday ;)

Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: xephyr on October 20, 2014, 06:15:42 PM
You guys can do the math, there is no way there is this much hash power. We're talking massive scale warehouse, which most likely doesn't exist. The power alone could probably power a small city.

How do you figure "there is no way" there could be that much hash power? There's 0.8 megawatts worth of miners on the floor above me (296 Spondoolies SP30s to be exact) and they're not in a massive scale warehouse. 2MW as skuser estimated doesn't seem impossible to me and 2MW will not power a small city, it's just 1 small commercial data center.

The thing you guys don't realize is while you think you may have ROI'd (sy yours is coming in 2 weeks), you really havn't unless you've cashed out and its in your bank account.

I can reach a ROI in terms of BTC spent and BTC I have received from LTCGear that's in my wallet. It's not like the payouts from LTCGear are credits on my account with them, they're BTC payments to my wallet. Why does it have to be converted back to fiat and "in your bank account"?

This thread (https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22563.msg213239#msg213239) implies that Chris is using CleverMining among others.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: cloudminer on October 21, 2014, 04:57:44 AM
I can accept theory about huge farm created in august/september and then selling its hashrate. However at current sales pace this hashrate must have been already sold out while Chris had to be the only person in universe creating mining equiment.
As for replacement of old gridseed/zeus equipment,how about  A2 chip based 100 MHs miners which have been available to buy since May, currently at about $16/MHs and still within 180 ROI when mining just litecoin. I don't see too much space for hashrate drops caused by turning off old equipment. The same like nobody noticed turning off graphic cards.

Anyway without Chris response we can only keep guessing and waiting for another friday ;)

Interesting discussion here. 
I have a questions for those who understand bitcoin/litecoin mining (sorry, my knowledge in crypto mining is limited):

Is it possible that litecoin hashrate distribution is ACTUALLY MISSING a lot of hash power that is 'stealth' (perhaps by directly mining from coin daemon, changing IPs often as well as wallet addresses so as not to draw too much network traffic), and that total litecoin network is ACTUALLY MUCH BIGGER, like 2,000GH/s for example (instead of 1,046GH/s at litecoinpool.org)?

I'd like to know if litecoinpool.org stats could be off and whether Litecoin Gear's hashrate consumption (which I agree is 'huge' if network total is 1,046 GH/s) is just not being accounted for in official stats (sort of like the 'shadow banking').
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 21, 2014, 05:15:47 AM
I can accept theory about huge farm created in august/september and then selling its hashrate. However at current sales pace this hashrate must have been already sold out while Chris had to be the only person in universe creating mining equiment.
As for replacement of old gridseed/zeus equipment,how about  A2 chip based 100 MHs miners which have been available to buy since May, currently at about $16/MHs and still within 180 ROI when mining just litecoin. I don't see too much space for hashrate drops caused by turning off old equipment. The same like nobody noticed turning off graphic cards.

Anyway without Chris response we can only keep guessing and waiting for another friday ;)

Interesting discussion here. 
I have a questions for those who understand bitcoin/litecoin mining (sorry, my knowledge in crypto mining is limited):

Is it possible that litecoin hashrate distribution is ACTUALLY MISSING a lot of hash power that is 'stealth' (perhaps by directly mining from coin daemon, changing IPs often as well as wallet addresses so as not to draw too much network traffic), and that total litecoin network is ACTUALLY MUCH BIGGER, like 2,000GH/s for example (instead of 1,046GH/s at litecoinpool.org)?

I'd like to know if litecoinpool.org stats could be off and whether Litecoin Gear's hashrate consumption (which I agree is 'huge' if network total is 1,046 GH/s) is just not being accounted for in official stats (sort of like the 'shadow banking').

If they are working on solving blocks then the hashing is accounted for. There is no way to "hide" hashing.

You can view LTC hashpower at below link with historical views as well.

https://bitcoinwisdom.com/litecoin/difficulty

The only exceptions are if LTCGear is mining other currencies and exchanging them for LTC/BTC similar to a multipool.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: skuser on October 21, 2014, 07:07:38 AM
To confirm my estimate, yesterday (October 20th) he 'sold' 105x 16k Asic shares (=by watching decreasing number of in stock items). If 30% orders didn't went through he still sold well over 10 GH/s of hashrate.

There was some mention he is using clevermining pool, I can imagine there is some hashing going on. I can even imagine he is having good price for large orders for chips. I just don't see that hashrate.


Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: cloudminer on October 21, 2014, 09:20:33 AM
If they are working on solving blocks then the hashing is accounted for. There is no way to "hide" hashing.

You can view LTC hashpower at below link with historical views as well.

https://bitcoinwisdom.com/litecoin/difficulty

The only exceptions are if LTCGear is mining other currencies and exchanging them for LTC/BTC similar to a multipool.

Thanks Sukarti for clarifying!  Very helpful.

If there is no possibility of a 'shadow economy' going on with litecoin mining ('shadow mining'?), then with skuser's numbers on estimated GH/s (and I think his numbers make sense), we have a situation where numbers just simply don't add up/make sense...

Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 21, 2014, 09:26:13 AM
To confirm my estimate, yesterday (October 20th) he 'sold' 105x 16k Asic shares (=by watching decreasing number of in stock items). If 30% orders didn't went through he still sold well over 10 GH/s of hashrate.

There was some mention he is using clevermining pool, I can imagine there is some hashing going on. I can even imagine he is having good price for large orders for chips. I just don't see that hashrate.

Your observation might be correct, but it doesn't mean that after the orders go to processing mode, Chris needs to turn on the machines and start mining immediately. Do you know why people get paid for the full week even if they order on the last minute before the snapshot date ? I think one reason for it that Chris already started the big chunk of his farm on a certain date before people starting to order the shares. He limits the daily number of shares orders according to how well his farm could scale weekly. It might explain how could he minimize the maintaining effort while maximize his profit and his clients too.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: skuser on October 21, 2014, 10:25:24 AM
Sure I don't expect the hashrate being added instantly  ;) However I am just saying (for the last time I promise) he is 'scaling' his farm by at least 100 Gh/s per week.
I will shut up for now and let you know when the order inflow slows down to half or rises twice so I can oppose with new facts :)

Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 21, 2014, 10:35:56 AM
Sure I don't expect the hashrate being added instantly  ;) However I am just saying (for the last time I promise) he is 'scaling' his farm by at least 100 Gh/s per week.
I will shut up for now and let you know when the order inflow slows down to half or rises twice so I can oppose with new facts :)

You might just overestimate the number ;). See my obs here: https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22433.msg213520#msg213520
I would say 10Gh/s per day maximum. Let's us check the hashrate in 2 weeks again ;).
Anyway thank for very helpful discussions. I enjoy it a little bit. :P
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: cloudminer on October 21, 2014, 10:49:37 AM
Sure I don't expect the hashrate being added instantly  ;) However I am just saying (for the last time I promise) he is 'scaling' his farm by at least 100 Gh/s per week.
I will shut up for now and let you know when the order inflow slows down to half or rises twice so I can oppose with new facts :)

Skuser, thanks for the input.  Great insights  :) :)!
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on October 21, 2014, 02:16:31 PM
We should pressure Chris to take a photo of his farm. Please email him at [email protected] . I already did
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 21, 2014, 02:23:59 PM
We should pressure Chris to take a photo of his farm. Please email him at [email protected] . I already did

Nope, don't stress him too much with your trivial request. As long as he performs the payouts correctly, we could be careless about this picture.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on October 21, 2014, 02:27:23 PM
Do you understand that there will not be any signs if it is ponzi. 1 friday you won't get your payment. You gonna wait but no answer. Then after a few days the website dissapear and it's gone
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 21, 2014, 02:39:06 PM
Do you understand that there will not be any signs if it is ponzi. 1 friday you won't get your payment. You gonna wait but no answer. Then after a few days the website dissapear and it's gone

He could disappear and doesn't pay you anymore even with the pictures. ;)
Don't invest the money you can't afford to lose with these kinds of high risk investments.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 21, 2014, 02:43:41 PM
Do you understand that there will not be any signs if it is ponzi. 1 friday you won't get your payment. You gonna wait but no answer. Then after a few days the website dissapear and it's gone

Do you think pictures of some random datacenter with "boxes and boards" will change that? Pictures are nice but no real proof at all...on paper almost everything screams this is impossible but he is still paying - the magic question is - for how long...
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on October 21, 2014, 03:06:12 PM
Do you understand that there will not be any signs if it is ponzi. 1 friday you won't get your payment. You gonna wait but no answer. Then after a few days the website dissapear and it's gone

Maybe, maybe not.

What people seem to forget is that if he really designed his own FPGAs and ASICs, his cost per Mh/s is tiny.  He may just not be greedy whereas GAW pays others for what Chris has done himself and is greedy.  Gaw isn't a competitor, its just another predatory company.  You'll never ROI with that (ponzi or not).

None of your points are really compelling or contain any evidence.  As many others have pointed out, photos don't matter. If he wanted to scam people, there are far easier, far more lucrative ways.  He could've done what Alpha, Fib, and Flower have done (outright scammed people).  Instead he delivers.  People say its a ponzi but ponzi can't work when you distribute cryptocoins, it only really works well with fiat (which can be easily acquired and is fungible and totally liquid to the tune of trillions).

I think he has at least the 140gh/s. Sy's share list seems to match that amount.  I think people vastly overinflate sales figures using what limited public data is available (which we know is inaccurately gathered and forecast because it assumes all cart additions are sales).  If people actually thought hard about this situation it would be apparent that we lack sufficient information to put forth speculation that isn't a waste of time.  Either it is or it isn't a scheme.  Declaring one way or another is foolish. Chris has delivered.  Week after week.  That's all the data that matters to me and I won't put in $ that I can't lose (which limits my gains, to be sure, but greed can kill you).  I'm waiting for real proof either way but I don't think pestering Chris to provide photos is the proof we need.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on October 21, 2014, 03:12:26 PM
Data center pictures are irrelevant as are pictures of an FPGA development board hashing.

There are already several scenarios posted where it is plausible for Chris to have build out the data center back in April or May.  THere were several large mining account on Coinotron that were threatening a 51% attack because of their size.  They went solo.

Recent discoveries of depositing addresses trace back to large accounts on  Clevermining.  At the time that affiliation started and discounts were provided on 1600 series units The Clever mining account 100 GHash, in the month of Sept it increased 200GHs.

I track the inventory on ltcgear.  The 77 units available early this week have finally sold out.  It took about 70 hours to do so.  That would account for 12GHs added to the ltcgear farm.  Over the course of the day 2 units are added to inventory at random time.  I haven't found a consistent pattern and there is no guarantee that the inventory is being manipulated.  Chris automates the addition and removal of inventory to increase speculation.

Does any of this answer any questions, no and it probably raises more.  But people here are climbing a wall of worry.  They have reached a point where they have ROI'd or reinvested shares to the point where they have a sizable virtual asset.  They are concerned and only now are they asking questions.

This is very much a gambling scenario.  You threw some small amount of riskable money but it has grow to a large amount.  Everyone sees a streak going and they don't want to leave the table when every bone in their body is telling them to take profits.  Your pot is too big and you are fighting yourself to stay. 

So please try to be rational about your decisions, and not let your emotions dictate your actions.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 21, 2014, 03:15:41 PM
Do you understand that there will not be any signs if it is ponzi. 1 friday you won't get your payment. You gonna wait but no answer. Then after a few days the website dissapear and it's gone

Do you think pictures of some random datacenter with "boxes and boards" will change that? Pictures are nice but no real proof at all...on paper almost everything screams this is impossible but he is still paying - the magic question is - for how long...

Not really, I think a short video of his Gen 2 ASIC hashing with a little information on the datacenter would be as conclusive as we could ever expect.

It would prove he has "his" ASIC hashing at X with Y wattage, with a quick pan of the datacenter to prove he has tons of units.

That would be plenty evidence for most.

+1 for Forceflow & artilectinc.com

I'll ride the wave for awhile, and if he's still around in a few months I'll reinvest for Christmas  :D
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 21, 2014, 03:19:32 PM
The problem i see is money and power tbh...

Current efficient ASICs run at roughly 4-5w per MH and those are in 28nm which i would say is simply out of his reach, estimated capital to develop those is around 6m+, more like 9m afaik (feel free to prove me wrong, that's what i've been told)

So he has to use a "larger" structure, probably somewhere between 40nm and 65nm which still costs ~2-4m, lets assume he did his job well and made the magic happen around 4w per MH.

You get 1 MH with a year of hosting for 5,30$.
At 4w thats 34.5 kw per year, depending on his power cost thats somewhere between 0.69$ (0.02$) and 3.45$ (0.10$), the later would basicly put his earnings to ~2$ per MH...4$ per MH seems nice but you still have to produce those chips (probably below 1$ each MH), ship them, populate the boards (that have to be bought and produces aswell), bring them online etc basicly invest alot of time. On top of that the said 130 GHs would consume around 520kw and he must be running more...

Like many said, its too good to be true, even at the original price his products were below all competitors so why half that price, basicly robbing himself.

I did invest in Chris and i really hope his mine will run for a very long time because it will benefit us who invested greatly - i honestly just can't see how or i would have put way more in. The magic multiplier is another big WTF xD
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: organizer on October 21, 2014, 03:31:15 PM
Just from my own experience from following LTCGear both before purchasing (you know, while i was waiting for my Fib & Flower ASICs to get delivered) and after puchasing, in no particular order:

[li]I think most would agree the possible "alarms" started really not directly after the Anniversary deal, but when the affiliate push came (the 11% affiliate rate is another WTF)
[/li][/list]

-----

Other random thoughts:

A while ago, someone posted that Chris had confirmed he mines multipools and not just LTC direct mining. I think there's a quoted email on the main thread.

The "out-of-stock" thing is also perplexing... it would be a horribly unefficient scam as someone said... I think *if* there's something off, it might just be that Chris has gotten too far ahead in taking orders vs. what he might or might not have in terms of hardware...

If it fails, I can tell you exactly when it will... it will be when i finally decide to place another big (for me) order as i've convinced myself not to be conservative.


Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 21, 2014, 03:31:36 PM
The problem i see is money and power tbh...

Current efficient ASICs run at roughly 4-5w per MH and those are in 28nm which i would say is simply out of his reach, estimated capital to develop those is around 6m+, more like 9m afaik (feel free to prove me wrong, that's what i've been told)

So he has to use a "larger" structure, probably somewhere between 40nm and 65nm which still costs ~2-4m, lets assume he did his job well and made the magic happen around 4w per MH.

You get 1 MH with a year of hosting for 5,30$.
At 4w thats 34.5 kw per year, depending on his power cost thats somewhere between 0.69$ (0.02$) and 3.45$ (0.10$), the later would basicly put his earnings to ~2$ per MH...4$ per MH seems nice but you still have to produce those chips (probably below 1$ each MH), ship them, populate the boards (that have to be bought and produces aswell), bring them online etc basicly invest alot of time. On top of that the said 130 GHs would consume around 520kw and he must be running more...

Like many said, its too good to be true, even at the original price his products were below all competitors so why half that price, basicly robbing himself.

I did invest in Chris and i really hope his mine will run for a very long time because it will benefit us who invested greatly - i honestly just can't see how or i would have put way more in. The magic multiplier is another big WTF xD

Your pricing would assume he doesn't mine with the equipment first (Even for a brief period, 1 or 2 weeks), doesn't take a % off the top similar to a pool, and that he mines straight LTC with 100% of the equipment. There's lots of ways to make additional money or reduce cost to customer.

Think of the small fortune the multipools make on a daily basis. 1% on 300+ GH/s is nothing to sneeze at for a residual weekly income.

The power point definitely resonates. http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/File:Electricity_prices_for_industrial_consumers,_first_half_2013_%281%29_%28EUR_per_kWh%29_YB14.png

Impossible to say where the farm/farms are exactly, I imagine he would target a location with the cheapest possible electricity before he started this venture.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: organizer on October 21, 2014, 03:35:54 PM
Just on a parallel line of thought... do we question GAW's unlimited availability of hash power? I think it's really interesting that they couldn't keep ZenPool's subsidized payments going for more than 3 months.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on October 21, 2014, 03:40:22 PM
Price isn't the most dazzling thing here. Multiplication is. After  4.5 months the hashrate doubles making price 2.5$/mh
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 21, 2014, 03:42:12 PM
Just on a parallel line of thought... do we question GAW's unlimited availability of hash power? I think it's really interesting that they couldn't keep ZenPool's subsidized payments going for more than 3 months.

GAW has hitched itself to Zeus which is a verified physical product. It's entirely possible they're oversold but no way to verify that either unless they volunteer for an audit.

As a large reseller/OEM of Zeus expect 40%+ discount on their products.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on October 21, 2014, 03:54:46 PM
This assumed that what he does is manufacture and immediately put up for sale the unit to sell as miners.

But it doesn't consider that the full network may have been deployed between April and June allowing Chris to mine with those units before they were put up for sale.  This would provide Chris the capital to continue to deploy more hardware and start R&D into 28nm or lower chips.

The original price of the pricing of the units was not 5,30$/MHs it was 10,95$/MHs before the anniversary special start.  Also LTC was trading in the 10$ range.

If Chris did deploy all his hardware, say 130GHs, in the early summer of 2014, then he would have earned 915300$ per week.  6 weeks of solo mining before selling units would have netted an easy 5 to 6 million $.

Over the next several months he is selling units and still mining with the current network that has not been sold.  It allows him to continue to scale the data center over time.  The company also has more than enough capital to start R&D on the 2nd generation ship that they could have started as year as June considering the capital that he generated in the months prior.  It is now 4 months in since then, it is quite possible that the chip is near completion if not already complete and being deployed as we speak.

He could be mining at a much lower cost and obtaining considerable capital to fund future R&D.  Once competitors reach the pricing of his 1600 series shares he will release the 2nd gen product and severely undercut them again.

Again my wild @ss guess.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on October 21, 2014, 04:00:00 PM
I know this is somewhat cross posting but I think it is relevant here...
Hi any update on pics of the farm? (https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=6401.msg213768#msg213768)
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: hawkfish007 on October 21, 2014, 04:04:45 PM
Didn't ltcgear shipped it's physical miner way before Zeus or Gaw was born? I didn't see all these questions full of fear and uncertainty even two months ago when I bought in to ltcgear. When ltcgear was charging $50/MH back in June in par with other manufacturer, nobody questioned the legitimacy of it's business model. Now the cheaper more efficient chips are in and ltcgear started selling them without marking them up 200%, we have all these questions. I would give this subject a rest, unless we have some evidence against ltcgear. Anyway, people shouldn't invest more than they could afford to loose. As for myself, I invested heavily in ltcgear and getting 15+ BTC a week :)
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 21, 2014, 04:18:48 PM
Most of the information is available if you read through all the historical announcements. If someone has been around all this time, please correct me. I think this order of events is handy for some of the newcomers.

Farmshares have been around since October 2013

Hardware Shares were available March 20th as trade in on the initial FPGA hardware, compensation for delayed shipments, and items damaged in shipment.

Hardware conversion to Farmshares was active April 1st 2014

Early June Asic/Qasic go on sale, they start hashing June 10th

First DRK mods are available July 10th

First VTC mods are available July 30th

Anniversary sale Aug 19th

Referrals active 11% Sep 17th

Chris mentions "Most likely, all old shares, including original F$, will be convertible to new product to lower the overall power consumption" Sep 17th

Annual fees were mentioned as far back as March 20th, however Chris/Bee said  "The annual fee will reflect new reality", so your annual cost seems to be a moving target as Chris retires old hardware and brings on new. Hopefully Chris can clarify what annual costs will be and how they'll be applied, I doubt he knows until a majority of the farm is running on "Gen 2" though.

Edit - Farmshare release date updated. Thanks Thaychuari!


Agree. There is no update . As payment received one day early because Chris want to end the sell and new data center but still sell is going on and no news about Data center.  The pic of the data center has been promised while ago still no news on it.

I will most likely do an announcement in next hours if I finish putting everything together. Most likely, all old shares, including original F$, will be convertible to new product to lower the overall power consumption, which became an issue - so basically the quantity restriction is not an issue anymore, at least not for the moment.
Right now I am back in Asia ( I did inform several customers about my whereabouts and I did restrain myself flooding website announcements section) where I finish the financial / logistic details to transfer home the new product batch. I will return back home most likely Saturday or Sunday. Since I will supervise again the payout (will run again BTC payments as test, since new product has this option embedded) I may also move again payout day forward or backward.
So one day after I am back, I will go get pictures for you. Also, the space is not yet fully populated since I expect to receive a lot of new boards.

Cheers,
Chris

His Gen 2 ASIC chips were supposedly picked up in China around September 17th.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 21, 2014, 05:07:17 PM
This assumed that what he does is manufacture and immediately put up for sale the unit to sell as miners.

But it doesn't consider that the full network may have been deployed between April and June allowing Chris to mine with those units before they were put up for sale.  This would provide Chris the capital to continue to deploy more hardware and start R&D into 28nm or lower chips.

The original price of the pricing of the units was not 5,30$/MHs it was 10,95$/MHs before the anniversary special start.  Also LTC was trading in the 10$ range.

If Chris did deploy all his hardware, say 130GHs, in the early summer of 2014, then he would have earned 915300$ per week.  6 weeks of solo mining before selling units would have netted an easy 5 to 6 million $.

Over the next several months he is selling units and still mining with the current network that has not been sold.  It allows him to continue to scale the data center over time.  The company also has more than enough capital to start R&D on the 2nd generation ship that they could have started as year as June considering the capital that he generated in the months prior.  It is now 4 months in since then, it is quite possible that the chip is near completion if not already complete and being deployed as we speak.

He could be mining at a much lower cost and obtaining considerable capital to fund future R&D.  Once competitors reach the pricing of his 1600 series shares he will release the 2nd gen product and severely undercut them again.

Again my wild @ss guess.

This would totally work but afaik there weren't enough sales to fund it at such scale, coming back to my money argument. The fpga sold okayish, i think about 200 were in stock but i could be wrong :) and 250$ was dead cheap...

And after that F$ but only for a very limited time, the shop was basicly inactive for month. I dont really see the 1m+ you need for such a base - if he did manage that then yes, everything is fine and makes sense...stupid IF :D

Maybe Chris has a good heart and that's why he is selling so low and multiplying - hard to believe in the crypto world though xD
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 21, 2014, 05:12:39 PM
This assumed that what he does is manufacture and immediately put up for sale the unit to sell as miners.

But it doesn't consider that the full network may have been deployed between April and June allowing Chris to mine with those units before they were put up for sale.  This would provide Chris the capital to continue to deploy more hardware and start R&D into 28nm or lower chips.

The original price of the pricing of the units was not 5,30$/MHs it was 10,95$/MHs before the anniversary special start.  Also LTC was trading in the 10$ range.

If Chris did deploy all his hardware, say 130GHs, in the early summer of 2014, then he would have earned 915300$ per week.  6 weeks of solo mining before selling units would have netted an easy 5 to 6 million $.

Over the next several months he is selling units and still mining with the current network that has not been sold.  It allows him to continue to scale the data center over time.  The company also has more than enough capital to start R&D on the 2nd generation ship that they could have started as year as June considering the capital that he generated in the months prior.  It is now 4 months in since then, it is quite possible that the chip is near completion if not already complete and being deployed as we speak.

He could be mining at a much lower cost and obtaining considerable capital to fund future R&D.  Once competitors reach the pricing of his 1600 series shares he will release the 2nd gen product and severely undercut them again.

Again my wild @ss guess.

This would totally work but afaik there weren't enough sales to fund it at such scale, coming back to my money argument. The fpga sold okayish, i think about 200 were in stock but i could be wrong :) and 250$ was dead cheap...

And after that F$ but only for a very limited time, the shop was basicly inactive for month. I dont really see the 1m+ you need for such a base - if he did manage that then yes, everything is fine and makes sense...stupid IF :D

Maybe Chris has a good heart and that's why he is selling so low and multiplying - hard to believe in the crypto world though xD

He has been hobby mining for years. He could have self funded last fall through big gains from being an early adopter of BTC/LTC.

More wild speculation.

Maybe making a few million is enough for him, he doesn't need 10's of millions  ;)
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: organizer on October 21, 2014, 05:19:08 PM
Maybe Chris has a good heart and that's why he is selling so low and multiplying - hard to believe in the crypto world though xD

Isn't it sad that this is actually the hardest thing to believe?

Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 21, 2014, 05:20:01 PM
Maybe Chris has a good heart and that's why he is selling so low and multiplying - hard to believe in the crypto world though xD

Isn't it sad that this is actually the hardest thing to believe?

Yep -.-
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 21, 2014, 05:37:43 PM
Maybe Chris has a good heart and that's why he is selling so low and multiplying - hard to believe in the crypto world though xD

Isn't it sad that this is actually the hardest thing to believe?

Extremely sad when greed/deception/fraud is the norm  >:(
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on October 21, 2014, 06:08:09 PM
But suspicions is required in crypto. So far my investments have been bitcoin-trader (no comment on that, was dumb), fibonacci (looked promising to a lot of us) and ltcgear. Ltcgear performed miracles compared to the other 2, but i am more careful now :D
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 21, 2014, 06:13:20 PM
Don't tell me about it...if i had just put everything wasted into ltcgear i wouldn't have to work another day -.-

Anyway, back to my numbers, i didnt factor in the pre fpga time where he was gpu mining or enjoying his fpga for himself, they where quite profitable for a while - this moves everything more into a possible scenario.

I still won't reinvest before i roi and i suggest you all do the same but it makes things more plausible - except the economical factor of his prices xD

My plan is to hit roi, then reinvest every other payout for a while...
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: sandpaper on October 21, 2014, 06:20:41 PM
I honestly don't think he is trying to Ponzi it. It would have most likely failed by this point considering he pays out correctly what the MH should be getting in LTC and others. If he is smart he is using his equipment on other things besides LTC and then keeping the extra % for himself to expand along with any % not taken by up shares is also going directly to costs and his pocket / expansion.

I can't imagine at this point it being anymore reliable than GAW.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: organizer on October 21, 2014, 07:43:20 PM
My plan is to hit roi, then reinvest every other payout for a while...

I'm trying to restrain myself and do it quarterly when the next "great deal" comes along like the Anniv/Dual MODs performance in Aug/Sept.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 21, 2014, 07:49:16 PM
My plan is to hit roi, then reinvest every other payout for a while...

I'm trying to restrain myself and do it quarterly when the next "great deal" comes along like the Anniv/Dual MODs performance in Aug/Sept.

You can't fight it. What if this is the last great deal ever? You must invest! Multiplication is coming!
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: dexter921 on October 21, 2014, 08:36:09 PM
My plan is to hit roi, then reinvest every other payout for a while...

I'm trying to restrain myself and do it quarterly when the next "great deal" comes along like the Anniv/Dual MODs performance in Aug/Sept.

You can't fight it. What if this is the last great deal ever? You must invest! Multiplication is coming!

let's see, think positive  :D
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on October 21, 2014, 09:07:10 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/9Tsp0iA.jpg)
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on October 21, 2014, 10:03:32 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/9Tsp0iA.jpg)

Nov 5th!
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 21, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/9Tsp0iA.jpg)

Based on the data I reckon that the multi will be not as high as last time.
0.02807630 LTC / 7 days / 1 ASIC Share at 10th August after the 1.5 multi.
0.02148952 LTC / 7 days / 1 ASIC Share at 27th September comes the 1.35 multi. (0.02807630 / 0.02148952 ~ 1.306)
We are at 0.01955602 rate now, and I doubt that the diff will rise as fast as 2 months ago. I assume that the lowest at 5th Nov will be 0.019 rate so the new multi could be 0.02148952 / 0.019 = 1.13.

It could be even lower so it might be no multi at all.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 21, 2014, 10:40:58 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/9Tsp0iA.jpg)

Based on the data I reckon that the multi will be not as high as last time.
0.02807630 LTC / 7 days / 1 ASIC Share at 10th August after the 1.5 multi.
0.02148952 LTC / 7 days / 1 ASIC Share at 27th September comes the 1.35 multi. (0.02807630 / 0.02148952 ~ 1.306)
We are at 0.01955602 rate now, and I doubt that the diff will rise as fast as 2 months ago. I assume that the lowest at 5th Nov will be 0.019 rate so the new multi could be 0.02148952 / 0.019 = 1.13.

It could be even lower so it might be no multi at all.

Impossible to say, it isn't tied to difficulty however. That's been proven through the last 4 or 5 multiplications.

At one point farm shares were sold with an advertised multiplier of 1.35.

That's why there is some guess of that being the minimum.

I will be amazed if it is 1.35 again, that is a helluva lotta hashing!
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 21, 2014, 10:46:02 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/9Tsp0iA.jpg)

Based on the data I reckon that the multi will be not as high as last time.
0.02807630 LTC / 7 days / 1 ASIC Share at 10th August after the 1.5 multi.
0.02148952 LTC / 7 days / 1 ASIC Share at 27th September comes the 1.35 multi. (0.02807630 / 0.02148952 ~ 1.306)
We are at 0.01955602 rate now, and I doubt that the diff will rise as fast as 2 months ago. I assume that the lowest at 5th Nov will be 0.019 rate so the new multi could be 0.02148952 / 0.019 = 1.13.

It could be even lower so it might be no multi at all.

Impossible to say, it isn't tied to difficulty however. That's been proven through the last 4 or 5 multiplications.

At one point farm shares were sold with an advertised multiplier of 1.35.

That's why there is some guess of that being the minimum.

I will be amazed if it is 1.35 again, that is a helluva lotta hashing!

Yep I agree. It would be a wild wet dream with any multi higher than 1.2, given the monster hashrate now.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: N2NShadow on October 21, 2014, 11:17:08 PM
I'm happily all in, ponzi or not!
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: kingscrown on October 22, 2014, 02:56:48 AM
anyboyd found owner of this?
odd he never replies
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 22, 2014, 07:31:15 AM
anyboyd found owner of this?
odd he never replies

LOL we have someone from GAW here.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: dexter921 on October 22, 2014, 09:46:14 AM
I'm happily all in, ponzi or not!

same here  ;D
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: N2NShadow on October 22, 2014, 11:45:15 AM
I'm happily all in, ponzi or not!

same here  ;D

Just to clarify, I do believe this is a legit operation.   ;)
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on October 22, 2014, 11:48:11 AM
Like I said on the other forum,
We traced a HUGE order of fans made from Chris and they were done somewhat recently. Chris isn't just recycling the BTC, he most definitely has a DC.
Don't ask me for info, if you're smart enough you can find it yourself.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on October 22, 2014, 02:43:48 PM
anyboyd found owner of this?
odd he never replies

Chris used to post more but I think he's busy with 2nd gen (or whatever else people think).
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Erikvanbreen on October 22, 2014, 04:10:21 PM
Its the real deal I think  :) Onwards to glory and wealth!  ;D
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Noogens on October 22, 2014, 06:13:13 PM
I'm into LTCgear now for almost a year, and beekeeper never let me down in the past.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on October 23, 2014, 10:02:08 AM
Well a month or so ago wasn't he saying that he just got back from Asia to get some chips made? *Something along those lines*.
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 23, 2014, 10:07:02 AM
The second time afaik, yes
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: CaptainTE on October 23, 2014, 09:49:37 PM
Well a month or so ago wasn't he saying that he just got back from Asia to get some chips made? *Something along those lines*.

I remember reading something like that in one of the forum posts as well.  Could mean even cheaper shares (or better) may be on the way in the next couple months!

Chris/Beekeeper is awesome if this is legit.  If not, well...bummer :/
Title: Re: LTCGear legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 28, 2014, 08:20:55 PM
Someone could track his LTC payment coming from this wallet ?
http://explorer.litecoin.net/address/LUuMPUYRcNjngcWy3SugMM6cQb1WwpMyr9

I believe it's one of Chris's wallet.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dexter921 on October 29, 2014, 02:10:21 AM
31 payout will be the last one ?  :o
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on October 29, 2014, 02:39:13 AM
I've been with Chris @ LTCGear since 2013, I've made enough money to live on for the next while.. I've been reinvesting ever since.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 29, 2014, 03:26:19 AM
I've been with Chris @ LTCGear since 2013, I've made enough money to live on for the next while.. I've been reinvesting ever since.

What?

You just joined the LTCGear thread a month or so ago as LTCGear, then tyrent, something else, now Texizat.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on October 29, 2014, 03:29:55 AM
Oh yea for sure, want to check my ltcgear username? I've been with them for almost a year now =)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 29, 2014, 04:10:58 AM
Oh yea for sure, want to check my ltcgear username? I've been with them for almost a year now =)

Why is your affiliate 459 then?

Odd that you found some obscure website without being on these forums.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 29, 2014, 07:53:04 AM
Oh yea for sure, want to check my ltcgear username? I've been with them for almost a year now =)

Why is your affiliate 459 then?

Odd that you found some obscure website without being on these forums.

I don't want to spoil Tyrent's secrets but one for sure that he doesn't have only one affiliate number ;)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Nikolaj on October 29, 2014, 04:58:00 PM
Hi guys

a quick question

How can I be an affiliate or referral for someone else? I've got 2 contracts with 2 accounts and I am going to make the third soon, probably tonight.

I would be the referral for some friends, for a common project.

Thanks
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: hawkfish007 on October 29, 2014, 05:02:36 PM
Hi guys

a quick question

How can I be an affiliate or referral for someone else? I've got 2 contracts with 2 accounts and I am going to make the third soon, probably tonight.

I would be the referral for some friends, for a common project.

Thanks

Click on my affiliate area from my account drop down menu, click create affiliate. Make sure to copy and paste your affiliate link and purchase from there.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 29, 2014, 05:44:56 PM
Oh yea for sure, want to check my ltcgear username? I've been with them for almost a year now =)

Why is your affiliate 459 then?

Odd that you found some obscure website without being on these forums.

I don't want to spoil Tyrent's secrets but one for sure that he doesn't have only one affiliate number ;)

I love LTCGear!
Thanks Chris for your amazing work!

Just bought 6400 more shares
yip!

I'm a complete moron, I had the wrong affiliate link in my signature for the last week.
Some random person probably got like 10 sales because of me!
Whoever 214 is.

I just bought 5 more packages from LTCGear
:D Now I have a total of 16,000 shares.


Sorry but he's just blatantly lying about how long he's been with LTCGear. He came over in the swarm from GAW after affiliates got started. Providing your LTCGear username doesn't mean anything, it isn't tied to a date.

What product did you buy a year ago with LTCGear Tyrent/Texizat?

No reason to misrepresent yourself.

You are just a liar, who will say anything to help push sales.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on October 29, 2014, 05:51:48 PM
Cool, some more jealous folk.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 29, 2014, 05:55:29 PM
Cool, some more jealous folk.

More absence of proof?

Big surprise.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on October 29, 2014, 05:57:00 PM
I didn't know this was a Question and Answer thread?
Want some proof?
http://ltcgearstore.com/?p=35
I have over 20 people that will vouch for me right now if you want.
Are you a detective or something? Are you just razzing me because you have no life?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 29, 2014, 05:58:55 PM
I didn't know this was a Question and Answer thread?
Want some proof?
http://ltcgearstore.com/?p=35
I have over 20 people that will vouch for me right now if you want.

Let me hold your hand seeing how your memory is so short.

I've been with Chris @ LTCGear since 2013, I've made enough money to live on for the next while.. I've been reinvesting ever since.

What?

You just joined the LTCGear thread a month or so ago as LTCGear, then tyrent, something else, now Texizat.

You claimed to be here over a year, provide some proof of your claims. I don't need "vouches" on a website you control that are 9 days old.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on October 29, 2014, 06:00:27 PM
I don't have to prove anything to you, lol
Who are you to demand proof?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 29, 2014, 06:02:47 PM
I don't have to prove anything to you, lol

You can't actually, not that you won't.

Just another liar in the crypto space!

Done with the off topic.

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tjc on October 29, 2014, 06:18:25 PM
I don't have to prove anything to you, lol

You can't actually, not that you won't. Done with the off topic.

Good.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: blackouter on October 30, 2014, 01:06:25 AM
I don't have to prove anything to you, lol
Who are you to demand proof?

You are also MemCiD on bitcointalk and LTCGEARHELP (banned) on hashtalk. I have been following your replies and I don't think you have been very honest.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kitano on October 30, 2014, 09:52:37 AM
LOL
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 30, 2014, 10:13:45 AM
Who cares if Texizat is really an old customer or who Sukarti trusts / believes / hates (everyone?)

Back to topic?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 30, 2014, 10:34:08 AM
Who cares if Texizat is really an old customer or who Sukarti trusts / believes / hates (everyone?)

Back to topic?

totally agreed. Sy won't tolerate similar behaviour again.
Btw I think we're almost close declare the legitimation of Chris's business do we? Given a lot of observations were made last week, it's almost clear as day.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: blackouter on October 30, 2014, 12:48:58 PM
I apologize!  :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on October 30, 2014, 02:05:38 PM
The only way to prove if you are legit for not is to send me 5000 qasic shares! That will solve the problem  ;D lol
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 30, 2014, 03:40:42 PM
Who cares if Texizat is really an old customer or who Sukarti trusts / believes / hates (everyone?)

Back to topic?

Just hate scammers and liars Sy.

I forgot we protect those on LTCTalk, my bad.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: organizer on October 31, 2014, 12:59:47 AM
Remember when the super-ethical, industry visionary CEO at GAW questioned the economics of LTCGear? You know, economically not feasible...blah blah blah? Funny how Hashlets prices are now somehow magically able to drop like rock as the GAW scheme seems to be crumbling a bit...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on October 31, 2014, 07:20:03 AM
So I'm confused ... have we given up on LTCGear not being legit?    I've pretty much decided it is legit because of where paid out LTC is coming from.   At least there a lot of mining being done.   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on October 31, 2014, 08:12:28 AM
So I'm confused ... have we given up on LTCGear not being legit?    I've pretty much decided it is legit because of where paid out LTC is coming from.   At least there a lot of mining being done.

Na, the last part is about User being legit or not, just a standard Sukarti...

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/48649782.jpg)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on October 31, 2014, 09:53:12 AM
So I'm confused ... have we given up on LTCGear not being legit?    I've pretty much decided it is legit because of where paid out LTC is coming from.   At least there a lot of mining being done.
pay out LTC coming from cryptsy address.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 31, 2014, 01:01:29 PM
So I'm confused ... have we given up on LTCGear not being legit?    I've pretty much decided it is legit because of where paid out LTC is coming from.   At least there a lot of mining being done.

Na, the last part is about User being legit or not, just a standard Sukarti...

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/48649782.jpg)

LOL Sy.
Btw, anyone who concerns about LTCgear being legit or not, always could sell his shares with good price now. The number of people who want to be IN is much higher than who want OUT. Fact, simple.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on October 31, 2014, 01:20:37 PM
Yeah I am aboard the "not a scam" train. I have literally 0 dollars invested because I came here with profits from GAW. SO even if the operation ends tomorrow and the website goes offline I didnt lose anything. Happy dance.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on October 31, 2014, 01:25:11 PM
Yeah I am aboard the "not a scam" train. I have literally 0 dollars invested because I came here with profits from GAW. SO even if the operation ends tomorrow and the website goes offline I didnt lose anything. Happy dance.

You're smart, and congrats. The problem is a lot of people gone full throttle in crypto with the money they can't afford to lose. It might  affect their thinking a lot.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on October 31, 2014, 01:32:01 PM
So I'm confused ... have we given up on LTCGear not being legit?    I've pretty much decided it is legit because of where paid out LTC is coming from.   At least there a lot of mining being done.
pay out LTC coming from cryptsy address.
The address I traced back was Solo Miner#3.  https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools 
Basically I was double checking someone else's claim as I was paid in BTC.   So it wasn't my payment address. 

LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr - From that address, the few deposits I checked at random all went back to  LUuMPUYRcNjngcWy3SugMM6cQb1WwpMyr9 which is Solo Miner#3, but through a second address. 

So if the first address is a cryptsy address, it appears to be funded by real mining.   

The person that initially posted his address was on the main thread.   I haven't directly confirmed this with my own coins.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on October 31, 2014, 04:18:28 PM
So I'm confused ... have we given up on LTCGear not being legit?    I've pretty much decided it is legit because of where paid out LTC is coming from.   At least there a lot of mining being done.
pay out LTC coming from cryptsy address.
The address I traced back was Solo Miner#3.  https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools (https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools) 
Basically I was double checking someone else's claim as I was paid in BTC.   So it wasn't my payment address. 

LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr - From that address, the few deposits I checked at random all went back to  LUuMPUYRcNjngcWy3SugMM6cQb1WwpMyr9 which is Solo Miner#3, but through a second address. 

So if the first address is a cryptsy address, it appears to be funded by real mining.   

The person that initially posted his address was on the main thread.   I haven't directly confirmed this with my own coins.
i have posted it on main thread as well.

remember that almost all ltc/blocks are generating from these huge miners listed. so almost all transactions should end up in one of those giant miners or pools, that doesn't prove the miner belongs to the payee.

LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr  appears to be the main hot wallet of cryptsy exchange
all coins mining in solominer 3 are coming to LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr via another address as you said, but thats not the only source LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr getting coins from. its getting coins from everywhere and sending coins to lot of other addresses (appears to be cold wallets and other 2nd level hot wallets)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on October 31, 2014, 05:15:00 PM
Sy made a meme just for me. So cute.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on October 31, 2014, 11:33:40 PM
So I'm confused ... have we given up on LTCGear not being legit?    I've pretty much decided it is legit because of where paid out LTC is coming from.   At least there a lot of mining being done.
pay out LTC coming from cryptsy address.
The address I traced back was Solo Miner#3.  https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools (https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools) 
Basically I was double checking someone else's claim as I was paid in BTC.   So it wasn't my payment address. 

LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr - From that address, the few deposits I checked at random all went back to  LUuMPUYRcNjngcWy3SugMM6cQb1WwpMyr9 which is Solo Miner#3, but through a second address. 

So if the first address is a cryptsy address, it appears to be funded by real mining.   

The person that initially posted his address was on the main thread.   I haven't directly confirmed this with my own coins.
i have posted it on main thread as well.

remember that almost all ltc/blocks are generating from these huge miners listed. so almost all transactions should end up in one of those giant miners or pools, that doesn't prove the miner belongs to the payee.

LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr  appears to be the main hot wallet of cryptsy exchange
all coins mining in solominer 3 are coming to LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr via another address as you said, but thats not the only source LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr getting coins from. its getting coins from everywhere and sending coins to lot of other addresses (appears to be cold wallets and other 2nd level hot wallets)

It was probably your post I was looking at.   I was just surprised by that multiple deposits we checked at random when back to the solominer3.    While it isn't 100% proof it is a good start.  However since beekeeper changes coins and sends out many payments it makes sense that something like cryptsy would be used.   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on November 01, 2014, 06:03:37 AM
So I'm confused ... have we given up on LTCGear not being legit?    I've pretty much decided it is legit because of where paid out LTC is coming from.   At least there a lot of mining being done.
pay out LTC coming from cryptsy address.
The address I traced back was Solo Miner#3.  https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools (https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools) 
Basically I was double checking someone else's claim as I was paid in BTC.   So it wasn't my payment address. 

LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr - From that address, the few deposits I checked at random all went back to  LUuMPUYRcNjngcWy3SugMM6cQb1WwpMyr9 which is Solo Miner#3, but through a second address. 

So if the first address is a cryptsy address, it appears to be funded by real mining.   

The person that initially posted his address was on the main thread.   I haven't directly confirmed this with my own coins.
i have posted it on main thread as well.

remember that almost all ltc/blocks are generating from these huge miners listed. so almost all transactions should end up in one of those giant miners or pools, that doesn't prove the miner belongs to the payee.

LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr  appears to be the main hot wallet of cryptsy exchange
all coins mining in solominer 3 are coming to LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr via another address as you said, but thats not the only source LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr getting coins from. its getting coins from everywhere and sending coins to lot of other addresses (appears to be cold wallets and other 2nd level hot wallets)

It was probably your post I was looking at.   I was just surprised by that multiple deposits we checked at random when back to the solominer3.    While it isn't 100% proof it is a good start.  However since beekeeper changes coins and sends out many payments it makes sense that something like cryptsy would be used.
i saw multiple times on farm payout page that he is using cryptsy exchanges rates for payments.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: rhok0 on November 02, 2014, 08:29:56 AM
The most impressing fact is the multiplication.
I would also pay 15$/mh or more, because it will mine constantly the same over a year, the diff increase doesn't bother me.

So the question is, why does he sell for that extremly low price, he could ask for much more and I/we would pay.

Looks like a gift :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 02, 2014, 08:42:08 AM
Sy made a meme just for me. So cute.

Na sorry, google image search and that one worked xD
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 02, 2014, 10:55:40 AM
The most impressing fact is the multiplication.
I would also pay 15$/mh or more, because it will mine constantly the same over a year, the diff increase doesn't bother me.

So the question is, why does he sell for that extremly low price, he could ask for much more and I/we would pay.

Looks like a gift :)

Chris's price is sure great, but it's not extremely low as many people think. His price is still the best in the market, but the competitors will be adapted to his price soon.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: troy112 on November 02, 2014, 03:13:18 PM
Can't we get his address from somwhere? I saw in the post that he used to sell through eBay and shipped hardware. We could check out his address, it's hard to keep so many miners hidden. I heard he is around Romania. Someone from near there can verify??... And crub all the doubts
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on November 02, 2014, 03:16:04 PM
I Wouldnt want my location disclosed. Chris blows the pants off of ANY cloud mining service. If they knew where he was, I bet Zeus/PB/GAW/Etc would just hire some thugs to go break his stuff. It is Romania... just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: TheMage on November 02, 2014, 10:40:17 PM
Topic in wrong area. Discussion seems to be around if LTCGear is a scam or not, moved to scammer accusations.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Transit Coin on November 03, 2014, 01:00:16 PM
Any one intrested in finding out the make and model of mobile he is using i mean chris :-)


Its samsung gt 19100 :-) now number :-)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on November 03, 2014, 01:05:19 PM
Any one intrested in finding out the make and model of mobile he is using i mean chris :-)


Its samsung gt 19100 :-) now number :-)
what ?  :o
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Transit Coin on November 03, 2014, 01:07:47 PM
Any one intrested in finding out the make and model of mobile he is using i mean chris :-)


Its samsung gt 19100 :-) now number :-)
what ?  :o


Yes dear askhim he will not deny :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on November 03, 2014, 01:20:55 PM
Any one intrested in finding out the make and model of mobile he is using i mean chris :-)


Its samsung gt 19100 :-) now number :-)
what ?  :o

Yes dear askhim he will not deny :)
im more interested in his miner models than his mobile phone.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Transit Coin on November 03, 2014, 01:29:06 PM
Any one intrested in finding out the make and model of mobile he is using i mean chris :-)


Its samsung gt 19100 :-) now number :-)
what ?  :o

Yes dear askhim he will not deny :)
im more interested in his miner models than his mobile phone.


And i am not bothered of either untill got paid :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 03, 2014, 02:02:17 PM
Topic in wrong area. Discussion seems to be around if LTCGear is a scam or not, moved to scammer accusations.

Cheers
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Litecoin_Hunter on November 04, 2014, 09:42:30 AM
Solo miner #3 is identified as http://ltc1btc.com/ (https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools)
It does not look like this is Chris  :o
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 04, 2014, 10:58:14 AM
Solo miner #3 is identified as http://ltc1btc.com/ (https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools)
It does not look like this is Chris  :o

Actually it is F2Pool, unless there was a huge step up in hashing power.  I haven't looked into that at all.

Anyway maybe he is using a Chinese datacenter.   It would make some sense as power is a lot cheaper.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 04, 2014, 03:23:24 PM
Solo miner #3 is identified as http://ltc1btc.com/ (https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools)
It does not look like this is Chris  :o

Clearly in an information vacuum we tend to make assumptions and conclusions that aren't supported by the data.  Fact is we don't know if Chris is mining there and comprises 99.99% of the pool or he really has no hash and its a ponzi scheme.

Its just all speculation and I doubt Chris is coming on here and clarifying anything.  Chris hasn't posted in well over a month and we've had pretty much no updates from him, especially about what to expect in the future.  That, IMO, is the most troubling aspect.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 04, 2014, 06:53:07 PM
Solo miner #3 is identified as http://ltc1btc.com/ (https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools)
It does not look like this is Chris  :o

Clearly in an information vacuum we tend to make assumptions and conclusions that aren't supported by the data.  Fact is we don't know if Chris is mining there and comprises 99.99% of the pool or he really has no hash and its a ponzi scheme.

Its just all speculation and I doubt Chris is coming on here and clarifying anything.  Chris hasn't posted in well over a month and we've had pretty much no updates from him, especially about what to expect in the future.  That, IMO, is the most troubling aspect.

+1.
One further note is because of the flux from new users, who esp. can't even pay attention to their orders, Chris wasted a lot of his valuable time.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on November 04, 2014, 07:16:37 PM
Solo miner #3 is identified as http://ltc1btc.com/ (https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools)
It does not look like this is Chris  :o

Citation?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: megaman84 on November 04, 2014, 07:36:57 PM
Solo miner #3 is identified as http://ltc1btc.com/ (https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools)
It does not look like this is Chris  :o

Actually it is F2Pool, unless there was a huge step up in hashing power.  I haven't looked into that at all.

Anyway maybe he is using a Chinese datacenter.   It would make some sense as power is a lot cheaper.

I am sorry but this is not true what your are talking. In bigger cities like Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Hong Kong etc.. electricity costs are quite high like about 0,15USD each kWh! Cheap electricity you just can get on the countryside of china, far away from infrastructure, which is about 30-40% lower than in the bigger cities.

In Romania 1kwh costs around 0,12USD. Romania has one of the cheapest electricity costs within Europe!
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 04, 2014, 08:18:07 PM
Solo miner #3 is identified as http://ltc1btc.com/ (https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools)
It does not look like this is Chris  :o

Actually it is F2Pool, unless there was a huge step up in hashing power.  I haven't looked into that at all.

Anyway maybe he is using a Chinese datacenter.   It would make some sense as power is a lot cheaper.

I am sorry but this is not true what your are talking. In bigger cities like Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Hong Kong etc.. electricity costs are quite high like about 0,15USD each kWh! Cheap electricity you just can get on the countryside of china, far away from infrastructure, which is about 30-40% lower than in the bigger cities.

In Romania 1kwh costs around 0,12USD. Romania has one of the cheapest electricity costs within Europe!

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/File:Electricity_prices_for_industrial_consumers,_first_half_2013_%281%29_%28EUR_per_kWh%29_YB14.png

Closer to .07USD in Romania, remember industrial power is cheaper than consumer. In some locations it equates to massive savings.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 04, 2014, 09:20:14 PM
Not sure why you are saying Romania.   If you look back at the older beekeeper posts you see he was very concerned about power use and costs with the fpga designs.   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 04, 2014, 09:21:29 PM
Not sure why you are saying Romania.   If you look back at the older beekeeper posts you see he was very concerned about power use and costs with the fpga designs.

Because the returned devices were shipped there which is the best guess at his location.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 04, 2014, 11:33:47 PM
No panic anymore ? That's boring.  ;D
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 04, 2014, 11:40:49 PM
No panic anymore ? That's boring.  ;D

The solo miner 3 thing isn't great news, that's for sure.

It appears to be an autoswitching scrypt/LTC pool that pays out in LTC/BTC/RMB (Alipay). Translator having a tough time with the website though.

It's possible Chris/Bee has hash there but he definitely isn't the whole pool!
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Brun on November 05, 2014, 12:44:37 AM
Hi,

I've already posted in another section of the forum. I was just curious if somebody had any proof of LTCGear. Pictures, videos, that sort of stuff that could make LTCGear different than a ponzi scheme.

Thank you.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: gsupp on November 05, 2014, 01:05:07 AM
Chris hasn't posted in well over a month and we've had pretty much no updates from him, especially about what to expect in the future.  That, IMO, is the most troubling aspect.

What do you mean? Chris posts announcements all the time: http://ltcgear.com/announcements/

Two notes
Posted on November 3, 2014 by Chris in Uncategorized

FTC mining
Posted on October 28, 2014 by Chris in Announcements

Payout day
Posted on October 17, 2014 by Chris in Uncategorized

“Coin Choice”
Posted on October 13, 2014 by Chris in Announcements

Convert to shares
Posted on October 10, 2014 by Chris in Uncategorized

Some tips when paying products with Bitcoin
Posted on October 4, 2014 by Chris in Announcements

Few small announcements
Posted on September 28, 2014 by Chris in Uncategorized

..etc.

Or you mean he hasn't posted in the Litecointalk forum? Well, not everyone has as much time on their hands as GAW_CEO.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: organizer on November 05, 2014, 01:26:59 AM
Hi,

I've already posted in another section of the forum. I was just curious if somebody had any proof of LTCGear. Pictures, videos, that sort of stuff that could make LTCGear different than a ponzi scheme.

Thank you.

I'll tell you, you wont get this information. You'll have to be like the rest of us, read through his history, what he has build/developed, how long he's been in business, customer's posts, etc... then make your decision... if you need pictures and videos, you'll only find year old ones.

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on November 05, 2014, 02:09:44 AM
No panic anymore ? That's boring.  ;D

The solo miner 3 thing isn't great news, that's for sure.

It appears to be an autoswitching scrypt/LTC pool that pays out in LTC/BTC/RMB (Alipay). Translator having a tough time with the website though.

It's possible Chris/Bee has hash there but he definitely isn't the whole pool!
i have also tried to get some info, but it has no stats about individual worker/miner speeds right? stat page was empty for me.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 05, 2014, 02:48:23 AM
No panic anymore ? That's boring.  ;D

The solo miner 3 thing isn't great news, that's for sure.

It appears to be an autoswitching scrypt/LTC pool that pays out in LTC/BTC/RMB (Alipay). Translator having a tough time with the website though.

It's possible Chris/Bee has hash there but he definitely isn't the whole pool!
i have also tried to get some info, but it has no stats about individual worker/miner speeds right? stat page was empty for me.

You may be able to if you create an account now that I think of it.

You can usually view top 10 or so once you are logged in.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on November 05, 2014, 03:25:53 AM
No panic anymore ? That's boring.  ;D

The solo miner 3 thing isn't great news, that's for sure.

It appears to be an autoswitching scrypt/LTC pool that pays out in LTC/BTC/RMB (Alipay). Translator having a tough time with the website though.

It's possible Chris/Bee has hash there but he definitely isn't the whole pool!
i have also tried to get some info, but it has no stats about individual worker/miner speeds right? stat page was empty for me.

You may be able to if you create an account now that I think of it.

You can usually view top 10 or so once you are logged in.
yep i have registered but no stats.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: FunnyGuys on November 05, 2014, 09:45:17 AM
Solo miner #3 is identified as http://ltc1btc.com/ (https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools)
It does not look like this is Chris  :o

Actually it is F2Pool, unless there was a huge step up in hashing power.  I haven't looked into that at all.

Anyway maybe he is using a Chinese datacenter.   It would make some sense as power is a lot cheaper.

I am sorry but this is not true what your are talking. In bigger cities like Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Hong Kong etc.. electricity costs are quite high like about 0,15USD each kWh! Cheap electricity you just can get on the countryside of china, far away from infrastructure, which is about 30-40% lower than in the bigger cities.

In Romania 1kwh costs around 0,12USD. Romania has one of the cheapest electricity costs within Europe!


US cents/kWh

China                         7.5 to 10.7
Romania                   18.40
Kuwait                     1  << I think cheapest in the world? but also maybe most dangerous too :p
India                            0.1 to 18 (Average 7)

Most parts of Europe are very expensive.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 05, 2014, 09:51:47 AM
No panic anymore ? That's boring.  ;D

The solo miner 3 thing isn't great news, that's for sure.

It appears to be an autoswitching scrypt/LTC pool that pays out in LTC/BTC/RMB (Alipay). Translator having a tough time with the website though.

It's possible Chris/Bee has hash there but he definitely isn't the whole pool!
i have also tried to get some info, but it has no stats about individual worker/miner speeds right? stat page was empty for me.

You may be able to if you create an account now that I think of it.

You can usually view top 10 or so once you are logged in.
yep i have registered but no stats.

Yes I tried too but no stats. But since a lot of payouts for us comes from this pool, Chris must be in top 10 at least, if not top 3.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on November 05, 2014, 10:20:09 AM
I have sold all my shares. I always assumed solo miner # 3 was Chris now it is unclear. He also promised pictures but never delivered which is very worrying.
Also the amount of shares he sold i huge, with multiplication coming, he must own at least 50% of network. I won't invest anything more until this operation gains transparency.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 05, 2014, 10:43:56 AM
I have sold all my shares. I always assumed solo miner # 3 was Chris now it is unclear. He also promised pictures but never delivered which is very worrying.
Also the amount of shares he sold i huge, with multiplication coming, he must own at least 50% of network. I won't invest anything more until this operation gains transparency.

Probably very smart...time will tell :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Brolly on November 05, 2014, 11:11:22 AM
Hello guys! Did Chris ever say why he doesn't publish a picture of his farm?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 05, 2014, 11:18:48 AM
I have sold all my shares. I always assumed solo miner # 3 was Chris now it is unclear. He also promised pictures but never delivered which is very worrying.
Also the amount of shares he sold i huge, with multiplication coming, he must own at least 50% of network. I won't invest anything more until this operation gains transparency.

I was skeptisch too but if he's ponzi he won't bother to send the refs payout last night and working very hard to solve everyone's problems before the multi. Doesn't make sense at all. If he happens to be a scammer, he's sure the best-heart scammer I ever know in my whole life.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Brolly on November 05, 2014, 11:34:02 AM
Even ponzi schemes operate in a very professional manner until the last day.Then they just disappear.
I just don't get why Chris isn't providing any kind of proof of his hashrate or his farm.

PS.I really hope that's not the case since i own a few thousand shares.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dexter921 on November 05, 2014, 01:56:04 PM
lets see, share holders are burning  :-\
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Larry W on November 05, 2014, 02:40:55 PM
From Homepage

Multiplication schedule


Hi,

Multiplication is scheduled for Nov 8, the day after payout. Saturday, Nov 8, the website will be placed in maintenance mode for several hours, all paid on-hold orders will be completed and will get their shares credited, then share multiplication will be performed.
 To report on-hold orders for quicker completion, please use ‘on-hold’ keyword when reporting via support contact.

Kind Regards,
 Chris
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: organizer on November 05, 2014, 03:06:39 PM
I finally found the previous "information" that I have mentioned at least a couple of times... of course it's no more than anecdotal/heresay(?):

To whether hash power was all focused at one place:

he's mining with various mining pools and solo-mining per his replied to my emailed him.

If you look through Thay's history, he's been around LTCGear since the beginning and was a disgruntled pre-order customer (of the hardware I think)... take that for whatever it's worth, I have no reason to disbelieve him that the conversation took place.

Regarding the farm itself, I at least, deduced that there were multiple locations:

Yes, I am working on it, but, there are lots more little things to be set in place to get it ready.
Since there is also multiplication scheduled for Sep 20, the new datacenter, and the new product, each of them pushing new things into current framework, there won't be anything related to merged mining until after multiplication.

PS: If you still have orders on hold, please leave a note via support.

This would probably be the new "grandaddy" center with all the new junk in it... But before this reference, he also said there were multiple farm locations:

Hi guys,

I am very sorry to answer you so seldom..
About 10% of "Farm" users are looking to move their farm contracts in open.
At this moment, "Farm" is geographically split. We will offer opportunity to our customers which want to  switch their contracts in ECO mode, including video footage (this was original plan), but it will come with an extra charge.

Thank You,
Chris

------

With this said, personally i'm not selling, but i'm not buying either as the ROI isn't as favorable and am hoping either LTCGear or someone else will release a better product by year's end... i'm comfortable with what I have and am almost at the point of 100% profit (initial investment ROI'd, the reinvestment I did is about 2 weeks away from being there). For now, i'm just seeing how it plays out.

I posted the above, just to address the points that some people have assumed all the hash power was in one place and only mining LTC... It's not proof that it's real, but I always assumed multipool/multiple pool mining & conversion for payouts... it's not proof, just a different assumption I guess.



Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: ninh on November 05, 2014, 05:04:16 PM
I have sold all my shares. I always assumed solo miner # 3 was Chris now it is unclear. He also promised pictures but never delivered which is very worrying.
Also the amount of shares he sold i huge, with multiplication coming, he must own at least 50% of network. I won't invest anything more until this operation gains transparency.

No one knows for sure about the amount of shares sold/paid.
You can only guest about that numbers based on order numbers, but as someone pointed out, those numbers are not sequentials.
And even then, you can never know if a order placed is paid or not.
If GAW or Zeus (or anyone who hates LTCGear for what ever reason) want to play dirty, they might place a lot of fake orders: this serves for 2 purposes :
- for real customers who want to buy shares, it will be more difficult, since shares are of out stock very quickly
- this make the amount of shares sold seems to be huge for many people, so they might think thats this is a ponzi scheme
No one can ever know if this is the case, or NOT.

That amount seems to be huge, YES,  but in reality, it might be huge, or NOT. Only Chris knows.


Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on November 05, 2014, 05:24:54 PM
I have sold all my shares. I always assumed solo miner # 3 was Chris now it is unclear. He also promised pictures but never delivered which is very worrying.
Also the amount of shares he sold i huge, with multiplication coming, he must own at least 50% of network. I won't invest anything more until this operation gains transparency.

No one knows for sure about the amount of shares sold/paid.
You can only guest about that numbers based on order numbers, but as someone pointed out, those numbers are not sequentials.
And even then, you can never know if a order placed is paid or not.
If GAW or Zeus (or anyone who hates LTCGear for what ever reason) want to play dirty, they might place a lot of fake orders: this serves for 2 purposes :
- for real customers who want to buy shares, it will be more difficult, since shares are of out stock very quickly
- this make the amount of shares sold seems to be huge for many people, so they might think thats this is a ponzi scheme
No one can ever know if this is the case, or NOT.

That amount seems to be huge, YES,  but in reality, it might be huge, or NOT. Only Chris knows.

I ran a bot on Ltcgear to pick up shares as I'm sure others do.  Yesterday was insanely difficult.  Units appear in stock 2 at a time at a specific interval.  I was fortunate to be able to grab 4 units successively.  I obtained 2 units when they first appeared in stock and then again when they appeared next. 

I've come to the conclusion that there are huge gaps in order numbers.  My first order number was in the 115xx range and my next order was in the 116xx range.  I was only able to get 2 orders consecutively but the range between order numbers was at least 100 orders. 

The way the cart works is first person to click the Place order button first gets the units in inventory.  But many people can have units in their cart and they receive an error saying that they cannot purchase the units because there are negative 300 or 600 units in stock.  When the units are back in stock you can place the order because your cart is no in sync with the inventory quantity.

My assumption is that the order numbers is attached to the cart.  There could be 100+ people with carts caching units all with order numbers waiting for stock so the can complete an order.

This may be the reason for such high order numbers.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cloudminer on November 05, 2014, 09:07:13 PM
I have sold all my shares. I always assumed solo miner # 3 was Chris now it is unclear. He also promised pictures but never delivered which is very worrying.
Also the amount of shares he sold i huge, with multiplication coming, he must own at least 50% of network. I won't invest anything more until this operation gains transparency.

No one knows for sure about the amount of shares sold/paid.
You can only guest about that numbers based on order numbers, but as someone pointed out, those numbers are not sequentials.
And even then, you can never know if a order placed is paid or not.
If GAW or Zeus (or anyone who hates LTCGear for what ever reason) want to play dirty, they might place a lot of fake orders: this serves for 2 purposes :
- for real customers who want to buy shares, it will be more difficult, since shares are of out stock very quickly
- this make the amount of shares sold seems to be huge for many people, so they might think thats this is a ponzi scheme
No one can ever know if this is the case, or NOT.

That amount seems to be huge, YES,  but in reality, it might be huge, or NOT. Only Chris knows.

I ran a bot on Ltcgear to pick up shares as I'm sure others do.  Yesterday was insanely difficult.  Units appear in stock 2 at a time at a specific interval.  I was fortunate to be able to grab 4 units successively.  I obtained 2 units when they first appeared in stock and then again when they appeared next. 

I've come to the conclusion that there are huge gaps in order numbers.  My first order number was in the 115xx range and my next order was in the 116xx range.  I was only able to get 2 orders consecutively but the range between order numbers was at least 100 orders. 

The way the cart works is first person to click the Place order button first gets the units in inventory.  But many people can have units in their cart and they receive an error saying that they cannot purchase the units because there are negative 300 or 600 units in stock.  When the units are back in stock you can place the order because your cart is no in sync with the inventory quantity.

My assumption is that the order numbers is attached to the cart.  There could be 100+ people with carts caching units all with order numbers waiting for stock so the can complete an order.

This may be the reason for such high order numbers.

Very nice input.  Explains things well :)

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: sky_g on November 05, 2014, 09:23:09 PM
I have sold all my shares. I always assumed solo miner # 3 was Chris now it is unclear. He also promised pictures but never delivered which is very worrying.
Also the amount of shares he sold i huge, with multiplication coming, he must own at least 50% of network. I won't invest anything more until this operation gains transparency.

Well then you are biggest scammer as first explanation provided by you while selling shares that you need money asap but never explained above until above then why you are telling this thing now ?

You sold shares to many (I am one of them) but the reason provided by you was false mean you are bigger scammer. and did you want operation gains transparency from Chris ?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 05, 2014, 09:25:13 PM
I have sold all my shares. I always assumed solo miner # 3 was Chris now it is unclear. He also promised pictures but never delivered which is very worrying.
Also the amount of shares he sold i huge, with multiplication coming, he must own at least 50% of network. I won't invest anything more until this operation gains transparency.

No one knows for sure about the amount of shares sold/paid.
You can only guest about that numbers based on order numbers, but as someone pointed out, those numbers are not sequentials.
And even then, you can never know if a order placed is paid or not.
If GAW or Zeus (or anyone who hates LTCGear for what ever reason) want to play dirty, they might place a lot of fake orders: this serves for 2 purposes :
- for real customers who want to buy shares, it will be more difficult, since shares are of out stock very quickly
- this make the amount of shares sold seems to be huge for many people, so they might think thats this is a ponzi scheme
No one can ever know if this is the case, or NOT.

That amount seems to be huge, YES,  but in reality, it might be huge, or NOT. Only Chris knows.

I ran a bot on Ltcgear to pick up shares as I'm sure others do.  Yesterday was insanely difficult.  Units appear in stock 2 at a time at a specific interval.  I was fortunate to be able to grab 4 units successively.  I obtained 2 units when they first appeared in stock and then again when they appeared next. 

I've come to the conclusion that there are huge gaps in order numbers.  My first order number was in the 115xx range and my next order was in the 116xx range.  I was only able to get 2 orders consecutively but the range between order numbers was at least 100 orders. 

The way the cart works is first person to click the Place order button first gets the units in inventory.  But many people can have units in their cart and they receive an error saying that they cannot purchase the units because there are negative 300 or 600 units in stock.  When the units are back in stock you can place the order because your cart is no in sync with the inventory quantity.

My assumption is that the order numbers is attached to the cart.  There could be 100+ people with carts caching units all with order numbers waiting for stock so the can complete an order.

This may be the reason for such high order numbers.

If it were something so simple then why doesn't Chris just explain it?

People are becoming leery for good reason. If he just posted the pictures he promised months ago, no big deal.

Instead we are left with nothing but guesses.

Not exactly a fantastic business model.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: karmala on November 05, 2014, 10:13:45 PM
yeah well and you guys sell them to us noobs.... Lets see maybe we make the cut in the end ;)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 05, 2014, 10:58:56 PM
~250GH added to LTC past ~2 days.

Ants, KNC, or LTCGear?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: NOVERIA on November 05, 2014, 11:10:05 PM
~250GH added to LTC past ~2 days.

Ants, KNC, or LTCGear?

Yes, i have been monitoring this spike whole day. It seems, that is holding for  the moment.
It is roughly change of 280 Ghash from last difficulty change.
If it is indeed Bees work, it translates in to equivalent of 1.750 new Asic 1K6X packs activated under >72hours
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: organizer on November 05, 2014, 11:29:32 PM

If it were something so simple then why doesn't Chris just explain it?

People are becoming leery for good reason. If he just posted the pictures he promised months ago, no big deal.

Instead we are left with nothing but guesses.

Not exactly a fantastic business model.

The problem with this type of thinking is he really doesn't owe you any explanation... this is pretty much what his business model has been long before most of us got here...

if you didn't know this about Bee before entering into it, well it's your own fault because while he was more active before the popularity, he acted pretty much the same. I reached out to him a couple of times with questions in June/July with zero responses. It definitely put a damper on any enthusiasm. He only owes you what his products are stated to deliver (weekly payouts). You are buying shares in a farm (not asics or virtual asics or rocketships) for a year. That's it.

I'm like everyone else, no idea if it's 100% legit or not. Historical information is there and (at least before the popularity) many of his customers were willing to answer my questions about things, his posts are here and on BTC Talk as well. It's up to you to make a grown-up decision... of course it might blow up.. but most everyone I see is playing both sides of it, either with shares, reselling things or pimping affiliate links... but we're also cautious for righteous reasons (either getting burned by the likes of Brock, Jasin or Josh)...

Finally, part of me there's also a need for everyone to get "on record" by posting our doubts so at some point, if it ever does blow up we all can say "AHAH! I KNEW IT" and feel better about it... but all at the same time we're still playing the game... it's kinda what we do, right?

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on November 05, 2014, 11:42:33 PM
I have sold all my shares. I always assumed solo miner # 3 was Chris now it is unclear. He also promised pictures but never delivered which is very worrying.
Also the amount of shares he sold i huge, with multiplication coming, he must own at least 50% of network. I won't invest anything more until this operation gains transparency.

Well then you are biggest scammer as first explanation provided by you while selling shares that you need money asap but never explained above until above then why you are telling this thing now ?

You sold shares to many (I am one of them) but the reason provided by you was false mean you are bigger scammer. and did you want operation gains transparency from Chris ?


Totally untrue. I sold 1 gh on the first day. And collected 5000$. That's what i needed and closed the sales. https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.msg216780#msg216780
Then tomorow i read this https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22433.msg216793#msg216793 stating that solo miner #3 is not Chris.
This is public information and i have  said even before  that i am suspicious of ltcgear https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.0
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: organizer on November 06, 2014, 12:07:59 AM

Totally untrue. I sold 1 gh on the first day. And collected 5000$. That's what i needed and closed the sales. https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.msg216780#msg216780
Then tomorow i read this https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22433.msg216793#msg216793 stating that solo miner #3 is not Chris.
This is public information and i have  said even before  that i am suspicious of ltcgear https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.0

Curious about the solo miner #3 thing... weren't people's payments actually tracked to that address? Has that changed? If not, wouldn't it just mean that Chris is mining there? Again, I never assumed he was mining in one place, but it seems like many people want to see the hash all in one place.

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 06, 2014, 12:22:54 AM

Totally untrue. I sold 1 gh on the first day. And collected 5000$. That's what i needed and closed the sales. https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.msg216780#msg216780
Then tomorow i read this https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22433.msg216793#msg216793 stating that solo miner #3 is not Chris.
This is public information and i have  said even before  that i am suspicious of ltcgear https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.0

Curious about the solo miner #3 thing... weren't people's payments actually tracked to that address? Has that changed? If not, wouldn't it just mean that Chris is mining there? Again, I never assumed he was mining in one place, but it seems like many people want to see the hash all in one place.

Payout's still coming from this pool last week. geetash's trying to see the top 10 miners in this pool but the entire interface was in Chinese, so no clue again. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on November 06, 2014, 12:56:30 AM
I have sold all my shares. I always assumed solo miner # 3 was Chris now it is unclear. He also promised pictures but never delivered which is very worrying.
Also the amount of shares he sold i huge, with multiplication coming, he must own at least 50% of network. I won't invest anything more until this operation gains transparency.

No one knows for sure about the amount of shares sold/paid.
You can only guest about that numbers based on order numbers, but as someone pointed out, those numbers are not sequentials.
And even then, you can never know if a order placed is paid or not.
If GAW or Zeus (or anyone who hates LTCGear for what ever reason) want to play dirty, they might place a lot of fake orders: this serves for 2 purposes :
- for real customers who want to buy shares, it will be more difficult, since shares are of out stock very quickly
- this make the amount of shares sold seems to be huge for many people, so they might think thats this is a ponzi scheme
No one can ever know if this is the case, or NOT.

That amount seems to be huge, YES,  but in reality, it might be huge, or NOT. Only Chris knows.

I ran a bot on Ltcgear to pick up shares as I'm sure others do.  Yesterday was insanely difficult.  Units appear in stock 2 at a time at a specific interval.  I was fortunate to be able to grab 4 units successively.  I obtained 2 units when they first appeared in stock and then again when they appeared next. 

I've come to the conclusion that there are huge gaps in order numbers.  My first order number was in the 115xx range and my next order was in the 116xx range.  I was only able to get 2 orders consecutively but the range between order numbers was at least 100 orders. 

The way the cart works is first person to click the Place order button first gets the units in inventory.  But many people can have units in their cart and they receive an error saying that they cannot purchase the units because there are negative 300 or 600 units in stock.  When the units are back in stock you can place the order because your cart is no in sync with the inventory quantity.

My assumption is that the order numbers is attached to the cart.  There could be 100+ people with carts caching units all with order numbers waiting for stock so the can complete an order.

This may be the reason for such high order numbers.

If it were something so simple then why doesn't Chris just explain it?

People are becoming leery for good reason. If he just posted the pictures he promised months ago, no big deal.

Instead we are left with nothing but guesses.

Not exactly a fantastic business model.

He may not know the exact inner workings of the woocommerce app.  I had to investigate it to find out and too time out of my day to do it.  For Chris it might be the lowest priority.  I'm find with people being scared.  Fear causes hesitation and hesitations means I get first mover advantage.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 06, 2014, 03:28:17 AM

Agree. There is no update . As payment received one day early because Chris want to end the sell and new data center but still sell is going on and no news about Data center.  The pic of the data center has been promised while ago still no news on it.

I will most likely do an announcement in next hours if I finish putting everything together. Most likely, all old shares, including original F$, will be convertible to new product to lower the overall power consumption, which became an issue - so basically the quantity restriction is not an issue anymore, at least not for the moment.
Right now I am back in Asia ( I did inform several customers about my whereabouts and I did restrain myself flooding website announcements section) where I finish the financial / logistic details to transfer home the new product batch. I will return back home most likely Saturday or Sunday. Since I will supervise again the payout (will run again BTC payments as test, since new product has this option embedded) I may also move again payout day forward or backward.
So one day after I am back, I will go get pictures for you. Also, the space is not yet fully populated since I expect to receive a lot of new boards.

Cheers,
Chris

The problem with this type of thinking is he really doesn't owe you any explanation... this is pretty much what his business model has been long before most of us got here...


No he doesn't owe me or anyone anything but for someone who claims to care about his clients, it seems he would alleviate some concerns. He also promised pictures some months ago, so his word means something, to me at least. THIS business model is still relatively fresh(Aug 19th), his prices were nothing to get excited about prior to that. Since then he has gone from ~40GH to several hundred GH without people batting so much as an eyelash.

If LTCGear folds we have no one to blame but ourselves for not demanding accountability of these sketchy practices. We should as a group demand more of these companies especially those of us with sizable investments.


He may not know the exact inner workings of the woocommerce app.  I had to investigate it to find out and too time out of my day to do it.  For Chris it might be the lowest priority.  I'm find with people being scared.  Fear causes hesitation and hesitations means I get first mover advantage.

Don't get too excited you are a year late for early mover and over a month late on the 1k6x bundles ;)

Irregardless of his knowledge of WooCommerce he could clarify roughly how many GH he has under management, at what rate he is deploying them,"some" of the locations he mines at, and other small pieces of information.

This would put minds at ease without giving up any trade secrets.

Good luck either way. I truly hope I'm wrong.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 06, 2014, 03:31:02 AM

Totally untrue. I sold 1 gh on the first day. And collected 5000$. That's what i needed and closed the sales. https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.msg216780#msg216780
Then tomorow i read this https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22433.msg216793#msg216793 stating that solo miner #3 is not Chris.
This is public information and i have  said even before  that i am suspicious of ltcgear https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.0

Curious about the solo miner #3 thing... weren't people's payments actually tracked to that address? Has that changed? If not, wouldn't it just mean that Chris is mining there? Again, I never assumed he was mining in one place, but it seems like many people want to see the hash all in one place.

There was never any evidence of anything posted, a few random people claiming they tracked payments with no proof. No transaction chain, nothing, just words.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on November 06, 2014, 03:33:26 AM
Don't get too excited you are a year late for early mover and over a month late on the 1k6x bundles ;)

Thanks but I'm sure I'm caught up already.  ;)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 06, 2014, 03:37:38 AM
Don't get too excited you are a year late for early mover and over a month late on the 1k6x bundles ;)

Thanks but I'm sure I'm caught up already.  ;)

A few days ago, I could have gave you a run for your money  ;)

For now I'll sit on the sidelines with the smaller investors.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: seanmcevers on November 06, 2014, 04:16:51 AM
I fully trust LTCgear my only question is where are the people that have been with Chris/beekeeper for the long haul.
I mean the one's that bought in before the ann packs went on sale the old schooler's.
If any of you are out there please pm me or hit this thread up with how long you have been with LTCgear.
I have been there since the last multi. 7 weeks now.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on November 06, 2014, 06:27:14 AM

Totally untrue. I sold 1 gh on the first day. And collected 5000$. That's what i needed and closed the sales. https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.msg216780#msg216780 (https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.msg216780#msg216780)
Then tomorow i read this https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22433.msg216793#msg216793 (https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22433.msg216793#msg216793) stating that solo miner #3 is not Chris.
This is public information and i have  said even before  that i am suspicious of ltcgear https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.0 (https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.0)

Curious about the solo miner #3 thing... weren't people's payments actually tracked to that address? Has that changed? If not, wouldn't it just mean that Chris is mining there? Again, I never assumed he was mining in one place, but it seems like many people want to see the hash all in one place.

Payout's still coming from this pool last week. geetash's trying to see the top 10 miners in this pool but the entire interface was in Chinese, so no clue again.
i have explained this several times, its not the pool those ltc coming from cryptsy. cryptsy getting coins from that pool and from other pools as well.
top 10 pools generating about 90% of all blocks generated so most of our payment traces should end up in one of these pools, that doesn't mean that the pool/workers from pool belongs to Chris.

actually i have registered and checked the stat page but stats were locked.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 06, 2014, 06:29:15 AM

Totally untrue. I sold 1 gh on the first day. And collected 5000$. That's what i needed and closed the sales. https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.msg216780#msg216780
Then tomorow i read this https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22433.msg216793#msg216793 stating that solo miner #3 is not Chris.
This is public information and i have  said even before  that i am suspicious of ltcgear https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.0

Curious about the solo miner #3 thing... weren't people's payments actually tracked to that address? Has that changed? If not, wouldn't it just mean that Chris is mining there? Again, I never assumed he was mining in one place, but it seems like many people want to see the hash all in one place.

Well I went from the last address and just started picking deposits at random and backtracking those.   I only did that for a few addresses but they all pointed back to Solo Miner #3.   To do a real job one would have to write a script and trace all deposits back at least two levels.    What I did is just a sample and may not have been large enough.   

On the other hand we really don't know much about the "datacenter".   For all we know it could be in China and that might be why pictures are an issue.   It could be something completely different.   

If I were is Chris's shoes, I might not want to prove anything either as he may already have too much business to easily handle.

I just hope it isn't a scam, but if it is, it is a huge one.     
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on November 06, 2014, 06:30:25 AM
yeah well and you guys sell them to us noobs.... Lets see maybe we make the cut in the end ;)
i have sold shares to you, you asked why selling and i have explained you the situation right?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 06, 2014, 07:32:55 AM

Totally untrue. I sold 1 gh on the first day. And collected 5000$. That's what i needed and closed the sales. https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.msg216780#msg216780
Then tomorow i read this https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22433.msg216793#msg216793 stating that solo miner #3 is not Chris.
This is public information and i have  said even before  that i am suspicious of ltcgear https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.0

Curious about the solo miner #3 thing... weren't people's payments actually tracked to that address? Has that changed? If not, wouldn't it just mean that Chris is mining there? Again, I never assumed he was mining in one place, but it seems like many people want to see the hash all in one place.

There was never any evidence of anything posted, a few random people claiming they tracked payments with no proof. No transaction chain, nothing, just words.

Addresses were posted.   You could have gone and checked yourself.   Sorry but you are pushing too far into FUD.   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: karmala on November 06, 2014, 08:23:17 AM
yeah well and you guys sell them to us noobs.... Lets see maybe we make the cut in the end ;)
i have sold shares to you, you asked why selling and i have explained you the situation right?

yes, you did. I bought at several places. You were the last and I asked. However, I dont blame anybody. I knew that it would be risky. It just got a little riskier after reading the latest posts here... Lets hope the best for all of us.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 06, 2014, 09:52:48 AM
yeah well and you guys sell them to us noobs.... Lets see maybe we make the cut in the end ;)
i have sold shares to you, you asked why selling and i have explained you the situation right?

yes, you did. I bought at several places. You were the last and I asked. However, I dont blame anybody. I knew that it would be risky. It just got a little riskier after reading the latest posts here... Lets hope the best for all of us.

This is a thread where people bleat about the risks.   If you need to feel better there are other threads with a lot of history of LTCgear.   

In the crypto world there is a lot of risk, but you can make good returns.   If you are concerned about the risk, just collect LTC or BTC for your payouts and make sure you get to your breakeven point.   Since there is a share multiplication this weekend you get there faster.   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: organizer on November 06, 2014, 12:10:11 PM

For now I'll sit on the sidelines with the smaller investors.

So you'll stop reselling and remove your referral link too?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Jief78 on November 06, 2014, 12:59:05 PM

For now I'll sit on the sidelines with the smaller investors.

So you'll stop reselling and remove your referral link too?

+1
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: sky_g on November 06, 2014, 01:06:09 PM

For now I'll sit on the sidelines with the smaller investors.

So you'll stop reselling and remove your referral link too?

+1

+1000
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Jief78 on November 06, 2014, 01:15:05 PM

Totally untrue. I sold 1 gh on the first day. And collected 5000$. That's what i needed and closed the sales. https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.msg216780#msg216780
Then tomorow i read this https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22433.msg216793#msg216793 stating that solo miner #3 is not Chris.
This is public information and i have  said even before  that i am suspicious of ltcgear https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22831.0

Curious about the solo miner #3 thing... weren't people's payments actually tracked to that address? Has that changed? If not, wouldn't it just mean that Chris is mining there? Again, I never assumed he was mining in one place, but it seems like many people want to see the hash all in one place.

There was never any evidence of anything posted, a few random people claiming they tracked payments with no proof. No transaction chain, nothing, just words.


    [...]


i got this one LLs5trRJuTQabeRnm9NsSDV83ZaSWgZWGh (https://chain.so/address/LTC/LLs5trRJuTQabeRnm9NsSDV83ZaSWgZWGh)

i received a payment from LQqki1MjCJaefoaQXAbKMhLkjSmaCXg5ok the 08/23  Tx id 8083a8f60e1dae6b36c98c90012aafac333e5024588e0dc601a9fd61a92f2551 (https://chain.so/tx/LTC/8083a8f60e1dae6b36c98c90012aafac333e5024588e0dc601a9fd61a92f2551)

who received all the 2000+  [ltc] directly from LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr
but here we have MANY MANY BIG incomes!
But one of these BIG income ( LNXvYNvkVnZV3XbFGMfChVKKyo9EXKb5Tf ) is only founded by LLs5trRJuTQabeRnm9NsSDV83ZaSWgZWGh (https://chain.so/address/LTC/LLs5trRJuTQabeRnm9NsSDV83ZaSWgZWGh) and "vice versa" ( send all mined coins to this address! )
Witch seems to be  A SOLO MINER !

Sorry for my English!

JIEF78



I was wrong since LLs5trRJuTQabeRnm9NsSDV83ZaSWgZWGh isn't a SOLO miner it's a pool ( i can't remember witch one )

BUT IS THIS JUST WORDS FOR YOU?????
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 06, 2014, 04:50:38 PM
.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: organizer on November 06, 2014, 06:03:14 PM

Once I'm done selling my shares yes, referral link gone as well.

Fair enough (plus i was just busting yer balls!)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 07, 2014, 12:25:07 AM
I have sold all my shares. I always assumed solo miner # 3 was Chris now it is unclear. He also promised pictures but never delivered which is very worrying.
Also the amount of shares he sold i huge, with multiplication coming, he must own at least 50% of network. I won't invest anything more until this operation gains transparency.

No one knows for sure about the amount of shares sold/paid.
You can only guest about that numbers based on order numbers, but as someone pointed out, those numbers are not sequentials.
And even then, you can never know if a order placed is paid or not.
If GAW or Zeus (or anyone who hates LTCGear for what ever reason) want to play dirty, they might place a lot of fake orders: this serves for 2 purposes :
- for real customers who want to buy shares, it will be more difficult, since shares are of out stock very quickly
- this make the amount of shares sold seems to be huge for many people, so they might think thats this is a ponzi scheme
No one can ever know if this is the case, or NOT.

That amount seems to be huge, YES,  but in reality, it might be huge, or NOT. Only Chris knows.

I ran a bot on Ltcgear to pick up shares as I'm sure others do.  Yesterday was insanely difficult.  Units appear in stock 2 at a time at a specific interval.  I was fortunate to be able to grab 4 units successively.  I obtained 2 units when they first appeared in stock and then again when they appeared next. 

I've come to the conclusion that there are huge gaps in order numbers.  My first order number was in the 115xx range and my next order was in the 116xx range.  I was only able to get 2 orders consecutively but the range between order numbers was at least 100 orders. 

The way the cart works is first person to click the Place order button first gets the units in inventory.  But many people can have units in their cart and they receive an error saying that they cannot purchase the units because there are negative 300 or 600 units in stock.  When the units are back in stock you can place the order because your cart is no in sync with the inventory quantity.

My assumption is that the order numbers is attached to the cart.  There could be 100+ people with carts caching units all with order numbers waiting for stock so the can complete an order.

This may be the reason for such high order numbers.

If it were something so simple then why doesn't Chris just explain it?

People are becoming leery for good reason. If he just posted the pictures he promised months ago, no big deal.

Instead we are left with nothing but guesses.

Not exactly a fantastic business model.

I agree, transparency has value.  Lack of transparency is a bad sign.  Also, Chris used to post, not often but he did.  Radio silence accompanied his change in business model.  Not sure why.

Finally, Chris said anniversary pack would last 1 week.  Then 2.  Then he set a date.  Then nothing --its still there.  I thought he was just selling old product -- new mega packs would come with this new Chinese wonder chip but the radio silence is really troubling.

Multiplication will be telling.

For the record, I've owned qASICs since late July.  When I purchased them, they were more expensive per Mh/s than some deals on physical miners (I was motivated by the multiplication which would make it cheaper (and with Mods, far more profitable than physical miners)). Now its silly cheap ($5/Mh!!).  So I don't know what to think.  Chris has never let me know so that has to count for a lot. I won't panic until there is real cause to panic but I am concerned because of the lack of transparency but that was, mostly, his MO.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 07, 2014, 12:42:01 AM
I agree, transparency has value.  Lack of transparency is a bad sign.  Also, Chris used to post, not often but he did.  Radio silence accompanied his change in business model.  Not sure why.

Finally, Chris said anniversary pack would last 1 week.  Then 2.  Then he set a date.  Then nothing --its still there.  I thought he was just selling old product -- new mega packs would come with this new Chinese wonder chip but the radio silence is really troubling.

Multiplication will be telling.

For the record, I've owned qASICs since late July.  When I purchased them, they were more expensive per Mh/s than some deals on physical miners (I was motivated by the multiplication which would make it cheaper (and with Mods, far more profitable than physical miners)). Now its silly cheap ($5/Mh!!).  So I don't know what to think.  Chris has never let me know so that has to count for a lot. I won't panic until there is real cause to panic but I am concerned because of the lack of transparency but that was, mostly, his MO.

His MO was also running a quiet little shop with a handful of customers all culled from a little message board that were mining/FPGA enthusiasts.

Not hundreds of customers spending millions of dollars buying up 100's of GH.

The story has changed dramatically since August 19th with little to no narrative.

Think about it.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 07, 2014, 01:09:20 AM
I agree, transparency has value.  Lack of transparency is a bad sign.  Also, Chris used to post, not often but he did.  Radio silence accompanied his change in business model.  Not sure why.

Finally, Chris said anniversary pack would last 1 week.  Then 2.  Then he set a date.  Then nothing --its still there.  I thought he was just selling old product -- new mega packs would come with this new Chinese wonder chip but the radio silence is really troubling.

Multiplication will be telling.

For the record, I've owned qASICs since late July.  When I purchased them, they were more expensive per Mh/s than some deals on physical miners (I was motivated by the multiplication which would make it cheaper (and with Mods, far more profitable than physical miners)). Now its silly cheap ($5/Mh!!).  So I don't know what to think.  Chris has never let me know so that has to count for a lot. I won't panic until there is real cause to panic but I am concerned because of the lack of transparency but that was, mostly, his MO.

His MO was also running a quiet little shop with a handful of customers all culled from a little message board that were mining/FPGA enthusiasts.

Not hundreds of customers spending millions of dollars buying up 100's of GH.

The story has changed dramatically since August 19th with little to no narrative.

Think about it.

Yes, I have thought about it and while I am concerned, I am not panicking.  I think his actions speak louder than any posts on this forum.  As we've all seen, an active poster can still fleece people for millions.  I posted this elsewhere:

If it is a scam, we all need to be scammed more like this as compared to Alpha, Fib, Flower, KnC, BFL, etc.

We will all see though because Chris has ensured only he holds the information, whether there is reason for that secrecy or not.  I agree that transparency is required in order to really invest substantial sums.  Due diligence is difficult to impossible in this field because investors don't insist on it up front (mainly because sellers rarely practice disclosure).  Its up to consumers to ask for more and risk forgoing potential profit for that.  If buyers all come to the same conclusion, sellers will have to adapt or die.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: organizer on November 07, 2014, 04:02:52 AM

I agree, transparency has value.  Lack of transparency is a bad sign.  Also, Chris used to post, not often but he did.  Radio silence accompanied his change in business model.  Not sure why.

Finally, Chris said anniversary pack would last 1 week.  Then 2.  Then he set a date.  Then nothing --its still there.  I thought he was just selling old product -- new mega packs would come with this new Chinese wonder chip but the radio silence is really troubling.

Multiplication will be telling.

For the record, I've owned qASICs since late July.  When I purchased them, they were more expensive per Mh/s than some deals on physical miners (I was motivated by the multiplication which would make it cheaper (and with Mods, far more profitable than physical miners)). Now its silly cheap ($5/Mh!!).  So I don't know what to think.  Chris has never let me know so that has to count for a lot. I won't panic until there is real cause to panic but I am concerned because of the lack of transparency but that was, mostly, his MO.


Why is the multiplication going to be "telling"? If it happens, does it put things to rest for you?

The length of the sale/share payout stuff is definitely causes concern more than anything on my end... the $5 a MHs, not so much... since i've just always assumed what the big boys/private farms are using are much better by many magnitudes compared to what I can just go onto a web site and buy. Look at GAW as an example, the CEO made a big "to-do" about how based on his experience, blah blah blah that the model wasn't possible... (of course Chris isn't bleeding money on marketing and stupid things like domain purchases)... but what happened there? $6.95 pricetag...

Regarding the communication, yeah it would be nice to have him post even like he did before the explosion (maybe once a week?)... but to be fair, I can't imagine the volume of emails he gets from all the people now using LTCGear, having to deal with people who don't know how to add transaction fees, etc...

Personally, I wish he'd get rid of share transfers putting an end to the resellers.

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: organizer on November 07, 2014, 04:10:03 AM

Yes, I have thought about it and while I am concerned, I am not panicking.  I think his actions speak louder than any posts on this forum.  As we've all seen, an active poster can still fleece people for millions. 


Sadly, this made me laugh.. but I think your stance about concerned, but not panicking is probably the best summary as to how we all probably feel (or maybe some are panicking).

What makes it hair-pullingly confusing though is, if this were a scam... why on earth would he have taken the time to answer a question i once had about an issue regarding a SINGLE SHARE...which he did actually answer.

At this point though, i'll just ride it out the ROI doesn't really motivate me to go any deeper than what I already have... either it keeps working, or it just goes poof someday.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: troy112 on November 07, 2014, 02:21:23 PM
I don't understand why do you think its just a Chris solving all your problems or sorting out emails. He would have a support staff with him. No single person can handle the farm and customer support both.
Also, why people this this is just a small shop?? Or he wanted it to be??. If you want to be a small shop, you don't go around selling the cheapest stuff around and in this much quantity.

Just agree on this point that it is or has become a huge business, I don't know why he don't spend on marketing or site improvement. But he needs to be transparent, if he was not in the past. Now its not a hobby shop or something.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 07, 2014, 04:42:08 PM
Why is the multiplication going to be "telling"? If it happens, does it put things to rest for you?

No, it won't put the matter to rest.  What makes this multi telling is that if he doesn't have hash that actually represents each share (and therefore is relying on new blood to fuel a ponzi) the breaking point will come as a result of this multi or the payment after multi goes through (note multi was postponed as I predicted to AFTER payout instead of before, so he pays out on non-multiplied shares).  Last multiplication was also delayed but the actual payouts were split (2 multiplied, 5 pre).  The multiplication before that was a clean multiplication (1.5) and the one before that was also a clean multiplication (1.55).  Neither represented Chris achieving nearly 30% of the entire LTC network (as this one will).  You cannot hide that much hash and it is becoming increasingly uncertain that Chris does, in fact, possess > 300Gh/s (plus his own part of the farm).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dexter921 on November 07, 2014, 06:03:04 PM
Why is the multiplication going to be "telling"? If it happens, does it put things to rest for you?

No, it won't put the matter to rest.  What makes this multi telling is that if he doesn't have hash that actually represents each share (and therefore is relying on new blood to fuel a ponzi) the breaking point will come as a result of this multi or the payment after multi goes through (note multi was postponed as I predicted to AFTER payout instead of before, so he pays out on non-multiplied shares).  Last multiplication was also delayed but the actual payouts were split (2 multiplied, 5 pre).  The multiplication before that was a clean multiplication (1.5) and the one before that was also a clean multiplication (1.55).  Neither represented Chris achieving nearly 30% of the entire LTC network (as this one will).  You cannot hide that much hash and it is becoming increasingly uncertain that Chris does, in fact, possess > 300Gh/s (plus his own part of the farm).

interesting, meanwhile payment info updated 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 07, 2014, 06:34:31 PM
Why is the multiplication going to be "telling"? If it happens, does it put things to rest for you?

No, it won't put the matter to rest.  What makes this multi telling is that if he doesn't have hash that actually represents each share (and therefore is relying on new blood to fuel a ponzi) the breaking point will come as a result of this multi or the payment after multi goes through (note multi was postponed as I predicted to AFTER payout instead of before, so he pays out on non-multiplied shares).  Last multiplication was also delayed but the actual payouts were split (2 multiplied, 5 pre).  The multiplication before that was a clean multiplication (1.5) and the one before that was also a clean multiplication (1.55).  Neither represented Chris achieving nearly 30% of the entire LTC network (as this one will).  You cannot hide that much hash and it is becoming increasingly uncertain that Chris does, in fact, possess > 300Gh/s (plus his own part of the farm).

interesting, meanwhile payment info updated

Honesty the number might speak different but Chris's actions never speaks as a ponzi. How in hell should he waste his time in taking care of his customers, even if it's totally their faults, instead of focusing on how to make money more.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on November 07, 2014, 06:44:37 PM
Taking care of his customers is making him money. So that argument is invalid.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: sky_g on November 07, 2014, 06:48:49 PM
Taking care of his customers is making him money. So that argument is invalid.

@atlosas  you  still with LTCGEAR...I thought u gone by selling all shares by telling people you need money and later telling i have doubt on ltcgear and you back again.

Many people think ltcgear is Scam but they do scam themself
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on November 07, 2014, 06:56:16 PM
If you could read carefully, i explained my reason for selling and i am around. I still have 1 dual mod.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: sky_g on November 07, 2014, 07:01:09 PM
If you could read carefully, i explained my reason for selling and i am around. I still have 1 dual mod.

Oh....sell it ...else u will loose the money as u have doubt on Chris..ha ha ha. Carry on
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on November 07, 2014, 07:04:44 PM
Sky_g i see you are seriously hurt by your inability to read public information and take responsibility for your actions.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: sky_g on November 07, 2014, 07:07:57 PM
Sky_g i see you are seriously hurt by your inability to read public information and take responsibility for your actions.

This is what u said after selling the shares to different people by telling i need money :) and that is why i am selling my shares so who is scammer ?

I have sold all my shares. I always assumed solo miner # 3 was Chris now it is unclear. He also promised pictures but never delivered which is very worrying.
Also the amount of shares he sold i huge, with multiplication coming, he must own at least 50% of network. I won't invest anything more until this operation gains transparency.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on November 07, 2014, 07:12:47 PM
I will repeat myself again. I sold 5000$ worth of shares on the first day and closed the sales (the money i need). Then tomorrow Solo miner # 3 was identified as some chinese company and i reopened sales.
I didn't say i am selling because i need money, noone even asked. I sold because of the new info posted here on forums which was unavailable the day before.
I delivered shares for the agreed price. It is your personal responsibility to asses risks related to your investment, not mine. I am not your mother.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 07, 2014, 07:19:02 PM
Taking care of his customers is making him money. So that argument is invalid.

There are a lot of ways to earn more money than paying time and attention to take care many little things of customers.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on November 07, 2014, 07:24:35 PM
Yes, but for example bitcoin-trader support allowed me to withdraw 500$ from my shares when they were 2 weeks old (they need 4 months to mature) and they turned out to be ponzi
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: sky_g on November 07, 2014, 07:29:58 PM


I will repeat myself again. I sold 5000$ worth of shares on the first day and closed the sales (the money i need). Then tomorrow Solo miner # 3 was identified as some chinese company and i reopened sales.
I didn't say i am selling because i need money, noone even asked. I sold because of the new info posted here on forums which was unavailable the day before.
I delivered shares for the agreed price. It is your personal responsibility to asses risks related to your investment, not mine. I am not your mother.

I am one of the person who bought the shares from you You contacted me directly (Check following email) . I gave enough public information to prove who gave false information so before asking other people to provide true information look at ur self.  I am sure you must earn lot of money by passing you Affiliate  link.

I am with LTCGEAR for a long long time :)  and holding much more hash power than you do. My issue is your selling technique you used and then calling Chris not providing pic...wow.

Do not need to drag family here but any way you did so let me tell you one thing ..thank to god that i do not have Scammer mom.


I am done with you.


==== EMAIL WITH YOUR COMMENT===================

LitecoinTalk.org <[email protected]>
   
2 Nov (5 days ago)
      
to me
You have just been sent a personal message by atlosas on LitecoinTalk.org.

IMPORTANT: Remember, this is just a notification. Please do not reply to this email.

The message they sent you was:

No, i choose to convert to shares before multiplication but now i need money :D. And the guy is selling for 709 so i have to sell cheaper. I thought it would be a good deal for people to buy before multiplication but it seems it is "too good" :D

Reply to this Personal Message here: https://litecointalk.org/index.php?action=pm;sa=send;f=inbox;pmsg=63570;quote;u=12004
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on November 07, 2014, 07:37:34 PM
Again you prove you can't read. I sold shares to you on the first day when the reason was money November 2
Then on November 4 i read this. https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=22433.msg216793#msg216793
That was the reason i sold all my shares on the next day. Nothing deceptive.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: treoz on November 07, 2014, 07:38:02 PM
Why Chris's farms woulnd't be in China ?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 07, 2014, 08:39:02 PM
sky_g why are you mad because of atlosas's reason for selling ?
Did he scam you ? You and he made a deal and he fulfilled it, didn't he?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Jsk on November 07, 2014, 09:12:47 PM
Hi, I am new here I was just reading forum and found very old (October 21, 2013, 10:42:21 PM) Chris message:

"I just had the discussion of my life with the man which will go an build my ASIC in China. And it was hard, we were looking eye to eye, and I was telling him the money we expecting, and he was defensive, cause he's Chinese, and we were arguing, and we left argument split.."

https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=6401.15

So really why Chris's farms can't be in China?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: treoz on November 07, 2014, 09:29:29 PM
payout received !
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: hawkfish007 on November 07, 2014, 09:30:58 PM
Hi, I am new here I was just reading forum and found very old (October 21, 2013, 10:42:21 PM) Chris message:

"I just had the discussion of my life with the man which will go an build my ASIC in China. And it was hard, we were looking eye to eye, and I was telling him the money we expecting, and he was defensive, cause he's Chinese, and we were arguing, and we left argument split.."

https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=6401.15

So really why Chris's farms can't be in China?

His farm could be very much located in China and somewhere else as he mentioned his farms are "geographically split" in the past. If I were Chris, I would have good reasons to not disclose farm locations or trade secrets, or even identity for tax purposes :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dexter921 on November 08, 2014, 01:57:53 AM
payout received !

 good sign
waiting to multiplication  [ltc]
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Transit Coin on November 08, 2014, 07:48:37 AM
I got my payout from address:

LVHjwsb5TFAfyWmTvHsUcGEWC8VKkxXRjz

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 08, 2014, 08:25:38 AM
I got my payout from address:

LVHjwsb5TFAfyWmTvHsUcGEWC8VKkxXRjz

You can use your Transaction ID and http://ltc.block-explorer.com/ to get to the first jump correctly.  From there you have to dig and see where the deposits come from.   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 08, 2014, 09:45:13 AM
I got my payout from address:

LVHjwsb5TFAfyWmTvHsUcGEWC8VKkxXRjz

You can use your Transaction ID and http://ltc.block-explorer.com/ to get to the first jump correctly.  From there you have to dig and see where the deposits come from.

You could track the original of the payment, it's always coming from a freshly minted address. But if it goes through an exchange wallet (cryptsy for example), it means nothing.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on November 08, 2014, 10:44:41 AM
Why is everyone trying to dox Chris?
Hes doing you ALL a favor by being the most profitable cloud mining company online today and you guys all want to shit in his bed?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 08, 2014, 10:56:21 AM
Why is everyone trying to dox Chris?
Hes doing you ALL a favor by being the most profitable cloud mining company online today and you guys all want to shit in his bed?

What dox, Tyrent?
It's simply a discussion about the transparency. I have nothing against Chris, only a few questions about his transparency need to be answered.
Btw how about your kid ? Everything alright ?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 08, 2014, 11:55:18 AM
I got my payout from address:

LVHjwsb5TFAfyWmTvHsUcGEWC8VKkxXRjz

You can use your Transaction ID and http://ltc.block-explorer.com/ to get to the first jump correctly.  From there you have to dig and see where the deposits come from.

You could track the original of the payment, it's always coming from a freshly minted address. But if it goes through an exchange wallet (cryptsy for example), it means nothing.

I am not sure if simply tracing addresses can prove or disprove anything. He could use several addresses for minting and even pay you with fresh customer funds. You'd have to make connections between the different wallets.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: organizer on November 08, 2014, 04:05:52 PM
No, it won't put the matter to rest.  What makes this multi telling is that if he doesn't have hash that actually represents each share (and therefore is relying on new blood to fuel a ponzi) the breaking point will come as a result of this multi or the payment after multi goes through (note multi was postponed as I predicted to AFTER payout instead of before, so he pays out on non-multiplied shares).  Last multiplication was also delayed but the actual payouts were split (2 multiplied, 5 pre).  The multiplication before that was a clean multiplication (1.5) and the one before that was also a clean multiplication (1.55).  Neither represented Chris achieving nearly 30% of the entire LTC network (as this one will).  You cannot hide that much hash and it is becoming increasingly uncertain that Chris does, in fact, possess > 300Gh/s (plus his own part of the farm).

Yeah, the total amount of hash is getting to be a concern... are you not at all thinking he's not just mining LTC? I've always thought he's on multipools too.

I want to be an optimist here, but not buying anything right now either.... 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 08, 2014, 05:37:38 PM
Why is the multiplication going to be "telling"? If it happens, does it put things to rest for you?

No, it won't put the matter to rest.  What makes this multi telling is that if he doesn't have hash that actually represents each share (and therefore is relying on new blood to fuel a ponzi) the breaking point will come as a result of this multi or the payment after multi goes through (note multi was postponed as I predicted to AFTER payout instead of before, so he pays out on non-multiplied shares).  Last multiplication was also delayed but the actual payouts were split (2 multiplied, 5 pre).  The multiplication before that was a clean multiplication (1.5) and the one before that was also a clean multiplication (1.55).  Neither represented Chris achieving nearly 30% of the entire LTC network (as this one will).  You cannot hide that much hash and it is becoming increasingly uncertain that Chris does, in fact, possess > 300Gh/s (plus his own part of the farm).

So let's assume this multiplication lands us at 300 GH/s and is in fact 1.35. 
     tomorrow  - 300  GH out of 1200 GH (1.35x)    25% of network
6   weeks ago - 222 GH out of 1000 GH  (1.35x)
12 weeks ago - 164 GH out of   806 GH  (1.5x)
18 weeks ago - 109 GH out of   475 GH  (1.55x)
24 weeks ago -   71 GH out of   240 GH                 29% of network

Okay you can jitter the numbers a bit, but basically a 1.35 multiplier would put us at a lower total % of the network than LTCgear would have been 6 months ago.   So it isn't a question of hiding 25% of the network, it is a question of how did LTCgear hide even more in the past?

It could be that LTCgear did increase the total supply a lot more in the past and pretty much maintained the same footprint or even had a growing footprint.   Which would beg the question as to why that never showed up in the past.   It could also be that LTCgear is just maintaining its footprint in a rapidly growing LTC network hash rate.   

The biggest myth I've heard about LTC gear is that the multiplication was unrelated to the difficulty change.   To me it looks like it has been tracking the difficulty growth pretty well, if anything 1.35x would be on the low side.

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: ahoenk on November 08, 2014, 08:08:28 PM
I got my payment smooth from 7 weeks ago...

Why you concernd about farm....as long as this thing makes money..it is good...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 09, 2014, 02:11:46 AM
Is it possible to trace back to from where all the payments come? Is it possible to sraw a "map" of the cashflow from the blockchain? Has anyone done any investigation how the crpytos move to and from LTCGear? I think you could get some sort of proof about the origin of the payments, are they mined or just recycled through some accounts? If you trace back Litecoins you recieved from LTCGear should it all be from new blocks from the past week? Can we find the proof we want ourselves?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 09, 2014, 03:52:33 AM
Is it possible to trace back to from where all the payments come? Is it possible to sraw a "map" of the cashflow from the blockchain? Has anyone done any investigation how the crpytos move to and from LTCGear? I think you could get some sort of proof about the origin of the payments, are they mined or just recycled through some accounts? If you trace back Litecoins you recieved from LTCGear should it all be from new blocks from the past week? Can we find the proof we want ourselves?

Yes it is possible but there would be a very large amount of transactions to trace through.   One would probably have to write a script to do it.   Even then the results might be open to interpretation.   We can be very sure there is at least some ltc coming from mining, but saying what percent is from mining might be difficult.   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 09, 2014, 11:42:57 AM
woke up this morning, thinking "wouldn't be surprised if multiplication was delayed again". and now there is this announcment on the site...  :-\

Meanwhile, yesterday the shop was busy selling shares... could even add over a thousand shares to my cart at one point. then some minutes later there was an error like "cannot add more, we have 158 in stock". then after some time the thousands were back. that gave me the creeps to be honest. even if those shares were not really sold, the shopping system looked like it was going full retard.
I also noticed the counter of available packs was removed from the shop at some point. now it is harder to figure the actual amount of shares sold from the outside.

Right now I am prepared that my shares will not live to see the next month.

Here is why: Chris knows that any multiplier he adds at this point will have to be backed by network hashrate. however that spike on november 6th is long gone now (could as well have been multipools switching from alts). By delaying the moment of truth for as long as possible, he can still draw money from the folks fleeing in panic from GAW right now.
Maybe we will see another week or two of regular payouts - as long as the amount of fresh sales can back the required payouts. But to me it simply makes no sense to keep selling stuff while there are "technical reasons" that keep normal operations from running as scheduled.

Still hoping to be proven wrong. At a minimum I expect to see LTC hasrate jump before the Gear site goes for maintenance. watching closely.


On a different note: I also bought shares from atlosas few days ago. have no hard feelings against him at all. was my own decision. just found this thread hours after the trade - maybe he should have first pointed customers here. but then who would have taken those hot potato shares?  :P
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kitano on November 09, 2014, 12:33:21 PM
You guys, so funny.
If in your opinion LTCGear is not legit, don't buy and don't sell anything.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: davidwpenny on November 09, 2014, 12:55:28 PM
I am definitely a newbie and I am just starting to buy shares in LTCGear (first investment by me in anything).  I cannot tell for sure by this discussion, but it sounds like you are saying that this company may not be legit.  Is that what is being said here?  How long have they been around?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 09, 2014, 12:57:42 PM
...

Right now I am prepared that my shares will not live to see the next month.

Here is why: Chris knows that any multiplier he adds at this point will have to be backed by network hashrate. however that spike on november 6th is long gone now (could as well have been multipools switching from alts). By delaying the moment of truth for as long as possible, he can still draw money from the folks fleeing in panic from GAW right now.
Maybe we will see another week or two of regular payouts - as long as the amount of fresh sales can back the required payouts. But to me it simply makes no sense to keep selling stuff while there are "technical reasons" that keep normal operations from running as scheduled.

Still hoping to be proven wrong. At a minimum I expect to see LTC hasrate jump before the Gear site goes for maintenance. watching closely.

1) We have seen a jump in the last few days of about 100GH and more on spikes.
2) Do some math, assuming this multiple is 1.35 that likely means six months ago LTCgear controlled more of the network than it does today.   (1.35, 1.35, 1.5 and 1.55)   In May the LTC network hash rate was only around 240 GH.   The LTC network hash rate has grown by 5 times in 6 months!   (Just look at my post on the top of this page.)

Probably back in May people were thinking the same thing, where is the LTCgear hash rate.   Then LTCgear must have been 50GH - 70 GH in size based on current estimates.  Basically 1/3 of the LTC mining!   Now it seems like it is closer to 1/4.   Most likely at least until Aug. LTCgear was losing ground.   

If the size of LTCgear wasn't a problem six months ago, why is it a problem now?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 09, 2014, 01:02:07 PM
I am definitely a newbie and I am just starting to buy shares in LTCGear (first investment by me in anything).  I cannot tell for sure by this discussion, but it sounds like you are saying that this company may not be legit.  Is that what is being said here?  How long have they been around?

LTCgear has been around over a year.  It is not an easy first time investment.  The website isn't user friendly and there are lots of ways to get confused or to delay your payments.   (You need to fill out the account form, read the announcements, etc ...)

However you joined at a good time.  Shares will be multiplied and breakeven will come faster because of that.

Like any cloud mining, there is a chance it is a scam.   However Chris at LTCgear has always dealt with people honestly and fairly. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 09, 2014, 01:58:12 PM
If in your opinion LTCGear is not legit, don't buy and don't sell anything.

Have you read what I wrote? If I had known then what I know now, I would not have bought anything. Will not buy more shares right now for sure.

Is that what is being said here?  How long have they been around?

Just take some time and read this thread from the start to get a picture. And then read some other LTCGear threads just to feel better again ;)
But some early investors just got rid of their shares to see how this multiplication thing will work out. I tend to think it was a wise decision.
If I were you I'd just wait some more days before going in. Don't let greed take over :)

@dykask: I see your point. Will be afk for few hours. Will reply afterwards.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: iawa on November 09, 2014, 04:46:30 PM
How much hash rate are chinese farms responsible for?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on November 09, 2014, 04:49:54 PM
If in your opinion LTCGear is not legit, don't buy and don't sell anything.

Have you read what I wrote? If I had known then what I know now, I would not have bought anything. Will not buy more shares right now for sure.

Is that what is being said here?  How long have they been around?

Just take some time and read this thread from the start to get a picture. And then read some other LTCGear threads just to feel better again ;)
But some early investors just got rid of their shares to see how this multiplication thing will work out. I tend to think it was a wise decision.
If I were you I'd just wait some more days before going in. Don't let greed take over :)

@dykask: I see your point. Will be afk for few hours. Will reply afterwards.

You're onto the right track but it's really not as complicated as most people think.

Well, actually, most people aren't thinking.

There is no way LTCgear has anywhere near this hash rate. For multiple reasons.

But people don't care as long as they're getting paid.

What they don't realize is they're getting paid with new money coming in.

What's more likely -
1. LTCgear runs the largest hashing farm in the world
Or
2. It's a simple Ponzi scheme.

Now back up for a second and ask yourself, does the crypto scene have an extremely high rate of scammers?

If LTCgear was legit, they could corner the entire cloud mining market with the best prices in the game.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on November 09, 2014, 04:59:15 PM
I am definitely a newbie and I am just starting to buy shares in LTCGear (first investment by me in anything).  I cannot tell for sure by this discussion, but it sounds like you are saying that this company may not be legit.  Is that what is being said here?  How long have they been around?

LTCgear has been around over a year.  It is not an easy first time investment.  The website isn't user friendly and there are lots of ways to get confused or to delay your payments.   (You need to fill out the account form, read the announcements, etc ...)

However you joined at a good time.  Shares will be multiplied and breakeven will come faster because of that.

Like any cloud mining, there is a chance it is a scam.   However Chris at LTCgear has always dealt with people honestly and fairly.

Joining 1 year after it's started is not a good time to join. The only people that won't get burned are the early buyers that cashed out after 2-3x ROI. The rest will be holding bags filled with useless shares.

From experience dealing with many of these schemes I can tell you with high certainty that it's getting close to the end.

When the anniversary 50% off came out, that was the first speed bump that required a lot more new money coming in. At that point on, it became extremely risky to get in.

Share multiplication is a strategy to keep people re-investing and to have them avoid cashing out. LTCgear already has the best prices in the game, do you truly think they need share multiplication? It's not rocket science people.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: hawkfish007 on November 09, 2014, 05:17:58 PM
But some early investors just got rid of their shares to see how this multiplication thing will work out. I tend to think it was a wise decision.
@dykask: I see your point. Will be afk for few hours. Will reply afterwards.

I don't think your assumption "some early investors just got rid of their shares" is correct. Because if they did, they will be in the red since per MH price was >$55 prior to the anniversary deal (2nd week of August). I am reading the threads and found that sellers doubting total hash rate and reselling their shares joined only after the anniversary deal was offered. I don't consider myself as an early investor since I began purchasing in June, but the per MH price was 10x higher at that time.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on November 09, 2014, 05:20:33 PM
Not to question any serious doubts expressed in this thread:

Why everybody is so much concerned with multiplication?

If you are a scammer, and you think its time to disappear, when will you do this: before payment or before multiplication? Payment is a real cash outflow for LTCGear, while multiplication - if you doubt LTCGear is legit -  is just a number you see on a screen after logging in...

So if I have suspicions the time I would be concerned is just before / during regular payment.

And the capacity of the farm estimated on number of orders can be extremely overestimated, as somebody above has pointed out.

Just my two cents on common sense.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on November 09, 2014, 05:29:10 PM
Not to question any serious doubts expressed in this thread:

Why everybody is so much concerned with multiplication?

If you are a scammer, and you think its time to disappear, when will you do this: before payment or before multiplication? Payment is a real cash outflow for LTCGear, while multiplication - if you doubt LTCGear is legit -  is just a number you see on a screen after logging in...

So if I have suspicions the time I would be concerned is just before / during regular payment.

And the capacity of the farm estimated on number of orders can be extremely overestimated, as somebody above has pointed out.

Just my two cents on common sense.

Quote
Share multiplication is a strategy to keep people re-investing and to have them avoid cashing out. LTCgear already has the best prices in the game, do you truly think they need share multiplication? It's not rocket science people.

Without a doubt, the disappearance will occur before payment.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 09, 2014, 05:46:06 PM
But some early investors just got rid of their shares to see how this multiplication thing will work out. I tend to think it was a wise decision.

I don't think your assumption "some early investors just got rid of their shares" is correct. Because if they did, they will be in the red since per MH price was >$55 prior to the anniversary deal (2nd week of August). I am reading the threads and found that sellers doubting total hash rate and reselling their shares joined only after the anniversary deal was offered. I don't consider myself as an early investor since I began purchasing in June, but the per MH price was 10x higher at that time.

Fair enough. maybe I jumped to conclusions too early. just assumed Sukarti, atlosas et al were in it for much longer, as they indicated to be past ROI already.
The message should have been: People who are in the game for much longer than me (or other newbies) have just left the building.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: hawkfish007 on November 09, 2014, 06:06:33 PM
But some early investors just got rid of their shares to see how this multiplication thing will work out. I tend to think it was a wise decision.

I don't think your assumption "some early investors just got rid of their shares" is correct. Because if they did, they will be in the red since per MH price was >$55 prior to the anniversary deal (2nd week of August). I am reading the threads and found that sellers doubting total hash rate and reselling their shares joined only after the anniversary deal was offered. I don't consider myself as an early investor since I began purchasing in June, but the per MH price was 10x higher at that time.

Fair enough. maybe I jumped to conclusions too early. just assumed Sukarti, atlosas et al were in it for much longer, as they indicated to be past ROI already.
The message should have been: People who are in the game for much longer than me (or other newbies) have just left the building.

ROI for early anniversary shares was 4 weeks, now it's 8-9 weeks. People may have sold their shares to receive a quick 3x-4x return on their investment while still holding a quite a bit of shares ;) Now where can you make a 4x return in 2 1/2 months.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 09, 2014, 06:23:46 PM
Not to question any serious doubts expressed in this thread:

Why everybody is so much concerned with multiplication?

If you are a scammer, and you think its time to disappear, when will you do this: before payment or before multiplication? Payment is a real cash outflow for LTCGear, while multiplication - if you doubt LTCGear is legit -  is just a number you see on a screen after logging in...

So if I have suspicions the time I would be concerned is just before / during regular payment.

And the capacity of the farm estimated on number of orders can be extremely overestimated, as somebody above has pointed out.

Just my two cents on common sense.

Quote
Share multiplication is a strategy to keep people re-investing and to have them avoid cashing out. LTCgear already has the best prices in the game, do you truly think they need share multiplication? It's not rocket science people.

Without a doubt, the disappearance will occur before payment.

1. Chris gives no guarantee for share multiplication. It's a free service. It happened before with high rates because the hashrate of the farm is quite small and the based price is higher.
2. Chris still pays until now, so what's your point ?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 09, 2014, 06:43:38 PM
If I could place a bet, I'd put my money on marcellogreen  ;D

There are so many pieces that just don't look right here.. the overall picture looks pretty bad by now.
Of course people have come forward to explain each and every questionable detail.


Now we could debate each point to death, find counter arguments till we are blue in the face. its just so much easier to explain everything with a pyramid scheme.

Many newcomers also don't know about past scams like fibonacci (jasinlee) (https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=2702) and such. I know everybody is telling us "go read! get educated!" but the sheer amount of things to catch up on makes it hard at times. Quick summary: jasinlee was a respected member of this forum for a long time. then he announced some Fabulous Mining Gear for pre-sale. people trusted in him because of his past. gave him money. he took all and ran away. To date its still unclear if this was a planned scam all along, but it would not have been possible without jasinlee being trusted. Much like LTCgear.

One more thing: The affiliate program of LTCGear with its high payouts is plain genious! I really admire the simplicity and effectiveness. Just think about how it is helping to keep the whole scheme alive!
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 09, 2014, 07:07:52 PM
1. Chris gives no guarantee for share multiplication. It's a free service. It happened before with high rates because the hashrate of the farm is quite small and the based price is higher.
2. Chris still pays until now, so what's your point ?

Since you have an affiliate link in your signature - may I assume that you take interest in defending the business?
I don't blame you for that. but I will see your comments in that light. Just as organizer has pointed out in a good posting some pages ago:

.. but most everyone I see is playing both sides of it, either with shares, reselling things or pimping affiliate links... but we're also cautious for righteous reasons (either getting burned by the likes of Brock, Jasin or Josh)...

so: 1. True. but share multiplication is also a great means to boost sales once in a while. i have seen people scramble to private sales in the past days just because "last opportunity before multi". they probably have scrambled to the webshop too
2. I assume this thread exists to help people assess their investment risks. So the point is not to reaffirm ourselves that payments are still working. But to predict if and when they might stop :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 09, 2014, 07:19:26 PM
If in your opinion LTCGear is not legit, don't buy and don't sell anything.

Have you read what I wrote? If I had known then what I know now, I would not have bought anything. Will not buy more shares right now for sure.

Is that what is being said here?  How long have they been around?

Just take some time and read this thread from the start to get a picture. And then read some other LTCGear threads just to feel better again ;)
But some early investors just got rid of their shares to see how this multiplication thing will work out. I tend to think it was a wise decision.
If I were you I'd just wait some more days before going in. Don't let greed take over :)

@dykask: I see your point. Will be afk for few hours. Will reply afterwards.

You're onto the right track but it's really not as complicated as most people think.

Well, actually, most people aren't thinking.

There is no way LTCgear has anywhere near this hash rate. For multiple reasons.

But people don't care as long as they're getting paid.

What they don't realize is they're getting paid with new money coming in.

What's more likely -
1. LTCgear runs the largest hashing farm in the world
Or
2. It's a simple Ponzi scheme.

Now back up for a second and ask yourself, does the crypto scene have an extremely high rate of scammers?

If LTCgear was legit, they could corner the entire cloud mining market with the best prices in the game.

You claim to be an expert but there is nothing professional in your demeanor, approach, analysis, diction, syntax, vernacular, or, and most especially, your conclusions or methodology (or lack thereof).

Try to actually bring something to the table instead of trolling.  The clearest scam I'm seeing is you presenting yourself as knowledgeable or "helping."  You fail at both.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 09, 2014, 07:20:38 PM
2. I assume this thread exists to help people assess their investment risks. So the point is not to reaffirm ourselves that payments are still working. But to predict if and when they might stop :)

The thread exists to have a healthy debate about LTCGear and it's legitimacy. Not to purely speculate on it's failure.

Please realize your summations are nothing new. Marcello was making the same statements months ago. He's been wrong so far, who knows what the future holds.

There is lots of misinformation and assumptions on both sides.

What I'm most leery of is the fact that Chris/Bee business is effectively built 100% on customer confidence at this time.

Confidence has been waning(A little) for numerous reasons recently, why doesn't he just squash the rumors and move on?

It wouldn't take more than a few hours of his time. For someone who started out very customer centric, he seems to be losing that focus, for whatever reasons.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 09, 2014, 07:49:58 PM
What I'm most leery of is the fact that Chris/Bee business is effectively built 100% on customer confidence at this time.

Confidence has been waning(A little) for numerous reasons recently, why doesn't he just squash the rumors and move on?

It wouldn't take more than a few hours of his time. For someone who started out very customer centric, he seems to be losing that focus, for whatever reasons.

Chris/Bee started withdrawing right around the anniversary.  That is also when he last reaffirmed his intention to address AuxPOW with DOGE and a "new product" which could be (or also include) the next gen ASIC and/or the video linked farm shares.  Nothing has happened since except continued sales of the anniversary shares and frenzied referral sales lending credence to a ponzi (but no data on either way, just idle speculation).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on November 09, 2014, 08:12:17 PM
Quote
You claim to be an expert but there is nothing professional in your demeanor, approach, analysis, diction, syntax, vernacular, or, and most especially, your conclusions or methodology (or lack thereof).

Try to actually bring something to the table instead of trolling.  The clearest scam I'm seeing is you presenting yourself as knowledgeable or "helping."  You fail at both.

You are correct, but let me explain something to you.

There are several methods I could list that would undoubtedly prove that this is a Ponzi, and most people would abandon ship (assuming I'm right about LTCgear)

But collapsing a Ponzi immediately leads to 99.99% of people losing money.

The best method is to slowly aware people. So they have time to sell their shares/withdraw, before it's too late.

You may not understand this, but given the choice, I'd rather limit the amount of people getting burned.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: marcellogreen on November 09, 2014, 08:17:33 PM
What I'm most leery of is the fact that Chris/Bee business is effectively built 100% on customer confidence at this time.

Confidence has been waning(A little) for numerous reasons recently, why doesn't he just squash the rumors and move on?

It wouldn't take more than a few hours of his time. For someone who started out very customer centric, he seems to be losing that focus, for whatever reasons.

Chris/Bee started withdrawing right around the anniversary.  That is also when he last reaffirmed his intention to address AuxPOW with DOGE and a "new product" which could be (or also include) the next gen ASIC and/or the video linked farm shares.  Nothing has happened since except continued sales of the anniversary shares and frenzied referral sales lending credence to a ponzi (but no data on either way, just idle speculation).

I believe Chris/Bee had something real/solid at first. But like most ponzis eventually greed takes over and makes people do irrational things. At some point in time, you realize accepting money / accounting is a heck of a lot easier than building the worlds largest mining farm.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 09, 2014, 08:19:12 PM
I would like to quote this comment from a wise man. It explains great the situation @ ltcgear right now.

Data center pictures are irrelevant as are pictures of an FPGA development board hashing.

There are already several scenarios posted where it is plausible for Chris to have build out the data center back in April or May.  THere were several large mining account on Coinotron that were threatening a 51% attack because of their size.  They went solo.

Recent discoveries of depositing addresses trace back to large accounts on  Clevermining.  At the time that affiliation started and discounts were provided on 1600 series units The Clever mining account 100 GHash, in the month of Sept it increased 200GHs.

I track the inventory on ltcgear.  The 77 units available early this week have finally sold out.  It took about 70 hours to do so.  That would account for 12GHs added to the ltcgear farm.  Over the course of the day 2 units are added to inventory at random time.  I haven't found a consistent pattern and there is no guarantee that the inventory is being manipulated.  Chris automates the addition and removal of inventory to increase speculation.

Does any of this answer any questions, no and it probably raises more.  But people here are climbing a wall of worry.  They have reached a point where they have ROI'd or reinvested shares to the point where they have a sizable virtual asset.  They are concerned and only now are they asking questions.

This is very much a gambling scenario.  You threw some small amount of riskable money but it has grow to a large amount.  Everyone sees a streak going and they don't want to leave the table when every bone in their body is telling them to take profits.  Your pot is too big and you are fighting yourself to stay. 

So please try to be rational about your decisions, and not let your emotions dictate your actions.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 09, 2014, 09:01:52 PM
Quote
You claim to be an expert but there is nothing professional in your demeanor, approach, analysis, diction, syntax, vernacular, or, and most especially, your conclusions or methodology (or lack thereof).

Try to actually bring something to the table instead of trolling.  The clearest scam I'm seeing is you presenting yourself as knowledgeable or "helping."  You fail at both.

You are correct, but let me explain something to you.

There are several methods I could list that would undoubtedly prove that this is a Ponzi, and most people would abandon ship (assuming I'm right about LTCgear)

But collapsing a Ponzi immediately leads to 99.99% of people losing money.

The best method is to slowly aware people. So they have time to sell their shares/withdraw, before it's too late.

You may not understand this, but given the choice, I'd rather limit the amount of people getting burned.

Aren't you magnanimous.  Let me get this straight -- you believe that by substantiating your concerns, it would collapse the Ponzi leading to losses among many so instead you'd rather troll and think that is more helpful because it allows *some* to withdraw their money at the expense of everyone else?  How is that any different?  Try again and just spill your beans. What you're doing is no different than scammers except at least Chris has been delivering on his promises.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 09, 2014, 09:07:42 PM
What I'm most leery of is the fact that Chris/Bee business is effectively built 100% on customer confidence at this time.

Confidence has been waning(A little) for numerous reasons recently, why doesn't he just squash the rumors and move on?

It wouldn't take more than a few hours of his time. For someone who started out very customer centric, he seems to be losing that focus, for whatever reasons.

Chris/Bee started withdrawing right around the anniversary.  That is also when he last reaffirmed his intention to address AuxPOW with DOGE and a "new product" which could be (or also include) the next gen ASIC and/or the video linked farm shares.  Nothing has happened since except continued sales of the anniversary shares and frenzied referral sales lending credence to a ponzi (but no data on either way, just idle speculation).

I believe Chris/Bee had something real/solid at first. But like most ponzis eventually greed takes over and makes people do irrational things. At some point in time, you realize accepting money / accounting is a heck of a lot easier than building the worlds largest mining farm.

That is what others have surmised but none of them (including me) have stated conclusively one way or another.  It is irresponsible to do so without revealing your methodology or data.  You can say you believe it is a ponzi but that's not what you're doing.  You're throwing around the expert/professional label without actually living up to it.

If you want to help, lay it all on the table and we can discuss.  Otherwise you're just one of us speculating except you have no horse in the race and therefore I'd ask that you let yourself out of the conversation until you are willing to contribute something more than just vague suspicions that others have voiced before (including you).

I believe you are viewing the situation correctly but are rushing to an unsupported conclusion.  If you reveal that support, I know it would help me make some decisions.

As AizenSou quotes (of artilectinc.com), we all need more data to ensure we are objectively and rationally making decisions.  If Chris started out ok, it is plausible he is still doing what he says and building out infrastructure but hiding his hash among many pools.  Then again, it could be all a lie.  The plausibility of the situation is what serves as a cloak if he is committing fraud.  Disrobing that cloak is what will allow people to save themselves -- veiled hints just creates more speculation.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 09, 2014, 09:23:48 PM
2. I assume this thread exists to help people assess their investment risks. So the point is not to reaffirm ourselves that payments are still working. But to predict if and when they might stop :)

The thread exists to have a healthy debate about LTCGear and it's legitimacy. Not to purely speculate on it's failure.

Please realize your summations are nothing new. Marcello was making the same statements months ago. He's been wrong so far, who knows what the future holds.

I was not implying this thread exists for speculation. This was referring to the "what's your point" question. (...jumping to conclusions again... must. stop. that.)
But in general I appreciate healthy discussions which, as a side effect, allow me to assess my investment risks :)
(Side note: I am not a native speaker so please bear with me if wording is not always to the point.)

Seen from an investor's point of view, knowledge about legitimacy will have a huge impact on my decisions.
Sure, one can ride the Ponzi train for some time and make profits as a third party. Just like altcoin pump and dump schemes. Timing is important. I think you did a good job selling your shares at this specific point.

And yes, I did not bring anything new to the table (a newbie can only do so much..). But if my summations helped even one single person (maybe davidwpenny?) to make a better investment decision, I like to think it was probably worth it.

Also the "[marcellogreen] has been wrong so far" point sounds much like the "Chris still pays until now, so what's your point" reasoning. I don't like both because they only carry little information about the potential future outcome.

What I am just about to realize is that every value in crypto (be it coins, mining gear, reputation, ...) is just temporary. Starting to appreciate that lessons learned by now.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 09, 2014, 09:38:01 PM
There are several methods I could list that would undoubtedly prove that this is a Ponzi, and most people would abandon ship (assuming I'm right about LTCgear)

But collapsing a Ponzi immediately leads to 99.99% of people losing money.

The best method is to slowly aware people. So they have time to sell their shares/withdraw, before it's too late.

You may not understand this, but given the choice, I'd rather limit the amount of people getting burned.

I respectfully disagree here.

Assuming for a moment this were a Ponzi scheme:
People cannot just return their shares to get money back. They have to find some new buyer to pass the risk onto. In the meantime new shares are 'produced' by the shopping system. These are vital because without incremental money flow the system would collapse anyway.

So the longer such a system is active, the more victims it will create. I don't see a point in waiting.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 09, 2014, 09:38:19 PM
Quote
You claim to be an expert but there is nothing professional in your demeanor, approach, analysis, diction, syntax, vernacular, or, and most especially, your conclusions or methodology (or lack thereof).

Try to actually bring something to the table instead of trolling.  The clearest scam I'm seeing is you presenting yourself as knowledgeable or "helping."  You fail at both.

You are correct, but let me explain something to you.

There are several methods I could list that would undoubtedly prove that this is a Ponzi, and most people would abandon ship (assuming I'm right about LTCgear)

But collapsing a Ponzi immediately leads to 99.99% of people losing money.

The best method is to slowly aware people. So they have time to sell their shares/withdraw, before it's too late.

You may not understand this, but given the choice, I'd rather limit the amount of people getting burned.

If you have some irrefutable evidence and you are withholding it then by all means present it. You aren't saving anyone with that weak justification. If anything you are more likely to be harming additional people as LTCGear continues to grow.

No one gets out of the situation, you simply transfer risk.


Also the "[marcellogreen] has been wrong so far" point sounds much like the "Chris still pays until now, so what's your point" reasoning. I don't like both because they only carry little information about the potential future outcome.


The point is that Marcello continues to state the same opinion over and over with no facts, he isn't adding anything to the conversation. Of all the people that have tried to make rhyme or reason of this, I've provided considerably more "evidence" than anyone that I've seen on this message board. Order #'s, growth trends, avg sales per referral, comparing hashrate trends to Chris's posts/announcements.

Unfortunately it's largely dispersed over several different threads, and honestly it's pointless.

Most people have their blinders on and are glued to their seats, unwilling to even look at the evidence or think about things in a critical fashion.

The situation could very easily be "proven" one way or another but the player (Chris/Bee) with all the cards isn't showing his hand as of yet.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 09, 2014, 09:51:52 PM
If I could place a bet, I'd put my money on marcellogreen  ;D

There are so many pieces that just don't look right here.. the overall picture looks pretty bad by now.
Of course people have come forward to explain each and every questionable detail.

  • High hashrate? -> "Numbers are exaggerated." OR "its not that high really. Just do the math"
  • Farm size/Energy consumption? -> "He has multiple farms all over the place. even in china!"
  • Amount of packets for sale? -> "He is selling his old gear. Perpare for next gen!"
  • No feedback on forums? -> "He is just busy with making us rich!" OR "But he just replied to my ticket!" (business 101: good customer service will make you more money)
  • Is it legit? -> "Has been reliable for over 1 year now. always pays on time!"
  • ...to be continued...

Now we could debate each point to death, find counter arguments till we are blue in the face. its just so much easier to explain everything with a pyramid scheme.

Many newcomers also don't know about past scams like fibonacci (jasinlee) (https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=2702) and such. I know everybody is telling us "go read! get educated!" but the sheer amount of things to catch up on makes it hard at times. Quick summary: jasinlee was a respected member of this forum for a long time. then he announced some Fabulous Mining Gear for pre-sale. people trusted in him because of his past. gave him money. he took all and ran away. To date its still unclear if this was a planned scam all along, but it would not have been possible without jasinlee being trusted. Much like LTCgear.

One more thing: The affiliate program of LTCGear with its high payouts is plain genious! I really admire the simplicity and effectiveness. Just think about how it is helping to keep the whole scheme alive!

The only point you have is the affiliate program doesn't really make sense.   Otherwise you aren't adding anything to the debate, just repeating marcellogreen who appears to only be trolling.   

Points that cancel out your line of thinking:
* There is a lot of history with LTCgear and they did provide hardware early on.   
* At this point LTCgear has paid out far more than could possibly have been collected, not how a Ponzi works.   

It maybe possible there is fractional mining going on, but there can be little doubt that there a lot of mining going on. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 09, 2014, 09:55:43 PM
Why wont you guys just trace back the LTC transfer you got from Chris on payday? Most of the LTCs on everyones payouts should be coming from new blocks. You guys just speculate and twist each others arms. Guys, just investigate the blockchain and trace the coins. How hard can that be?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 09, 2014, 10:00:26 PM
Why wont you guys just trace back the LTC transfer you got from Chris on payday? Most of the LTCs on everyones payouts should be coming from new blocks. You guys just speculate and twist each others arms. Guys, just investigate the blockchain and trace the coins. How hard can that be?

Extremely difficulty when the coins bounce around between a dozen or so wallets. Hot wallets, cold wallets, Cryptsy, BTC-E, etc.

It isn't exactly like coins land in one wallet and are sent directly out...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 09, 2014, 10:01:10 PM
Why wont you guys just trace back the LTC transfer you got from Chris on payday? Most of the LTCs on everyones payouts should be coming from new blocks. You guys just speculate and twist each others arms. Guys, just investigate the blockchain and trace the coins. How hard can that be?

That has been done, but people don't accept it as evidence.   The LTC payments come from exchanges which are funded by wallets that are funded by mining pools.   That was the case in the few addresses I picked and traced.   It is proof enough that some mining is going on.   

However the bulk of payments are not in BTC and that isn't traceable the same way. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 09, 2014, 10:03:37 PM
Why wont you guys just trace back the LTC transfer you got from Chris on payday? Most of the LTCs on everyones payouts should be coming from new blocks. You guys just speculate and twist each others arms. Guys, just investigate the blockchain and trace the coins. How hard can that be?

Extremely difficulty when the coins bounce around between a dozen or so wallets. Hot wallets, cold wallets, Cryptsy, BTC-E, etc.

It isn't exactly like coins land in one wallet and are sent directly out...

That wasn't the case with the LTC payments.   It looked like pool to payment wallet to exchange wallet, over and over.    However, I only look at a few payments into one exchange wallet.   

Below was a comment I started working from.  (Sorry I don't remember who provided this LTC payment)
i just traced mine to LUuMPUYRcNjngcWy3SugMM6cQb1WwpMyr9 (Solo miner #3) < LcWi3mp525gVmqXE1GEb2q7rseemZmR5iK <  LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr ( this is a large wallet with Total received = 6.9 million LTC)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 09, 2014, 10:06:34 PM
Why wont you guys just trace back the LTC transfer you got from Chris on payday? Most of the LTCs on everyones payouts should be coming from new blocks. You guys just speculate and twist each others arms. Guys, just investigate the blockchain and trace the coins. How hard can that be?

That has been done, but people don't accept it as evidence.   The LTC payments come from exchanges which are funded by wallets that are funded by mining pools.   That was the case in the few addresses I picked and traced.   It is proof enough that some mining is going on.   

However the bulk of payments are not in BTC and that isn't traceable the same way.

You have absolutely no way to prove that coins coming into the exchange from larger miners = coins coming out to us.

Once they hit the exchange, they could be anyone's funds.

If you could trace your coins back to mined blocks without touching LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr OR an absurd number of transactions then you may be on to something.


LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr is an exchange hot wallet, not a private wallet.

Why pay transaction fees and deal with the risk of an exchange if you are minting your own LTC?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 09, 2014, 10:16:15 PM
Why pay transaction fees and deal with the risk of an exchange if you are minting your own LTC?
This.

If ltcgear is mining LTC a lot why would it need to go through exchange? It would be a lot easier to make payments straight to customers. Raises an eye brow in my opinion.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 09, 2014, 10:20:57 PM
Why wont you guys just trace back the LTC transfer you got from Chris on payday? Most of the LTCs on everyones payouts should be coming from new blocks. You guys just speculate and twist each others arms. Guys, just investigate the blockchain and trace the coins. How hard can that be?

That has been done, but people don't accept it as evidence.   The LTC payments come from exchanges which are funded by wallets that are funded by mining pools.   That was the case in the few addresses I picked and traced.   It is proof enough that some mining is going on.   

However the bulk of payments are not in BTC and that isn't traceable the same way.

You have absolutely no way to prove that coins coming into the exchange from larger miners = coins coming out to us.

Once they hit the exchange, they could be anyone's funds.

If you could trace your coins back to mined blocks without touching LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr OR an absurd number of transactions then you may be on to something.


LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr is an exchange hot wallet, not a private wallet.

Why pay transaction fees and deal with the risk of an exchange if you are minting your own LTC?

The address LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr should be private to one account.   That is how wallets work.   My address is: LTHdSwanJFLKqAQxgkvapNkf53h6sasGqd and your address will be something else.   

In my Electrum wallet I've used dozens of addresses, still the same wallet.   Every account should have it's own address and view of the wallet.   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 09, 2014, 10:23:27 PM
Why pay transaction fees and deal with the risk of an exchange if you are minting your own LTC?
This.

If ltcgear is mining LTC a lot why would it need to go through exchange? It would be a lot easier to make payments straight to customers. Raises an eye brow in my opinion.

A lot of people take payment in different forms.   It isn't like a large number of payments have been looked at yet.    Instead of raising your eyebrows you should roll up your sleeves and do some digging.   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 09, 2014, 10:31:41 PM
Why pay transaction fees and deal with the risk of an exchange if you are minting your own LTC?
This.

If ltcgear is mining LTC a lot why would it need to go through exchange? It would be a lot easier to make payments straight to customers. Raises an eye brow in my opinion.

A lot of people take payment in different forms.   It isn't like a large number of payments have been looked at yet.    Instead of raising your eyebrows you should roll up your sleeves and do some digging.
First of all im not very good at this and secondly i have no ltcgear shares or payments in litecoin from where to start tracing. Thats why i kind of "asked" you guys do some investigation and if enough people report that their ltc payouts came from new blocks we could make some conclusion. Do you guys have ltcgear litecoin address where the payouts comes from? I would assume ltcgear wont use too many addresses from where it makes the payouts.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 09, 2014, 10:37:07 PM
The only point you have is the affiliate program doesn't really make sense.   Otherwise you aren't adding anything to the debate, just repeating marcellogreen who appears to only be trolling.   

Points that cancel out your line of thinking:
* There is a lot of history with LTCgear and they did provide hardware early on.   
* At this point LTCgear has paid out far more than could possibly have been collected, not how a Ponzi works.   

It maybe possible there is fractional mining going on, but there can be little doubt that there a lot of mining going on.

Thanks for the feedback. Honesty is appreciated. You may be right - I may not yet be in a position to do summaries.

What I was trying to point out with the fibonacci reference: A bright history (of LTCGear/jasinlee) may/did not mean anything if/when shit hits/hit the fan. However it does/did enable huge sales figures for both endeavors. it also did not prevent a scam from happening (in the second scenario).

Can you point me to a location where those numbers (or estimates) about payout vs. collected money can be seen? just did a search for payouts in this thread and found nothing meaningful.

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 09, 2014, 10:57:59 PM
The only point you have is the affiliate program doesn't really make sense.   Otherwise you aren't adding anything to the debate, just repeating marcellogreen who appears to only be trolling.   

Points that cancel out your line of thinking:
* There is a lot of history with LTCgear and they did provide hardware early on.   
* At this point LTCgear has paid out far more than could possibly have been collected, not how a Ponzi works.   

It maybe possible there is fractional mining going on, but there can be little doubt that there a lot of mining going on.

Thanks for the feedback. Honesty is appreciated. You may be right - I may not yet be in a position to do summaries.

What I was trying to point out with the fibonacci reference: A bright history (of LTCGear/jasinlee) may/did not mean anything if/when shit hits/hit the fan. However it does/did enable huge sales figures for both endeavors. it also did not prevent a scam from happening (in the second scenario).

Can you point me to a location where those numbers (or estimates) about payout vs. collected money can be seen? just did a search for payouts in this thread and found nothing meaningful.

It is simple, LTCgear plays out about 12% of the value of the shares every week.   There are many weeks where there haven't hardly be any shares up for sale and weeks where there are a lot more shares but the average at this point has to be far below 12% of the shares sold need to make the payments.   

If they were collecting more than what they take in, the number of shares would have to at least double every six weeks.   That means six months ago there would have only been 1/16th the shares and 1 year ago only 1/64th the shares.   Choose any reasonable values and you can see that it simply can't work.   At least for a 100% Ponzi scheme.   That doesn't mean that fractional mining couldn't be going on, but there has to a lot of real mining for it to last as long as it has.

I stopped buying for a few weeks when it seemed to me too many shares were being sold.   It took some time for me to get my head around the issue.   I actually believe at least up to Aug., LTCgear was losing ground on how much mining it accounted for.   Now it is just holding its own or maybe gaining a small amount.   Still I think LTCgear controls a smaller percentage of the LTC network hash rate than it did in May.   

So at this point, I have concerns but I actually have a lot more concerns about my GAW accounts for instance.   (Even though I past breakeven there.)     
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 09, 2014, 11:54:35 PM

The address LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr should be private to one account.   That is how wallets work.   My address is: LTHdSwanJFLKqAQxgkvapNkf53h6sasGqd and your address will be something else.   

In my Electrum wallet I've used dozens of addresses, still the same wallet.   Every account should have it's own address and view of the wallet.

The address LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr is a very large LTC hot wallet from BTC-E. Therefore could represent any and every users LTC funds there.

Tracing through an exchange is impossible unless you have access to the Exchanges records.

Make a LTC deposit to BTC-E.

Within a few confirmation(4 for me) your deposit is moved directly to LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr

Make a withdrawal from BTC-E.

Trace backwards to LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr

If you make a large withdrawal, the coins come directly from LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr OR LU28WrZc9hwyVEiTEgpHNdJJhB9Vhh6rHc

I confirmed with multiple large withdrawals.

If you make a small withdrawal you could be a few steps away.

Test Transaction - LTC

c5ee386d20b9cca4cbe6a3d82457ccd0422d1306f7452810dcb36a917ce90c1f

LN6tKtVnRDPPzPfXEPhWNjuon2HaUvPjJQ > LbC5MAe9xMg5vgKLwHQ7ip8WCo79vYQAjW > LRcQ7GMsGQm7odHCMBXgVpzXT2UoJVp2L3 > LKptKU3zMPLNk8nLhFuwMYrARpTHa7cYgH > LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr


So your assumption about coin tracing is absolutely useless. If you are moving through BTC-E you have no clue about the origination of those coins.

Please don't lecture about wallets when you don't have any idea how it actually works.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: hawkfish007 on November 10, 2014, 12:06:23 AM
Just got referral payment, even though Chris didn't update the website with payment information yet. Shouldn't he be selling all types of shares before multiplication if he was running a Ponzi and not planning to pay as some expert (?) speculated here? I see everything is sold out.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on November 10, 2014, 01:02:13 AM
got my referral payment too.  8)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 10, 2014, 01:15:59 AM

The address LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr should be private to one account.   That is how wallets work.   My address is: LTHdSwanJFLKqAQxgkvapNkf53h6sasGqd and your address will be something else.   

In my Electrum wallet I've used dozens of addresses, still the same wallet.   Every account should have it's own address and view of the wallet.

The address LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr is a very large LTC hot wallet from BTC-E. Therefore could represent any and every users LTC funds there.

Tracing through an exchange is impossible unless you have access to the Exchanges records.

Make a LTC deposit to BTC-E.

Within a few confirmation(4 for me) your deposit is moved directly to LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr

Make a withdrawal from BTC-E.

Trace backwards to LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr

If you make a large withdrawal, the coins come directly from LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr OR LU28WrZc9hwyVEiTEgpHNdJJhB9Vhh6rHc

I confirmed with multiple large withdrawals.

If you make a small withdrawal you could be a few steps away.

Test Transaction - LTC

c5ee386d20b9cca4cbe6a3d82457ccd0422d1306f7452810dcb36a917ce90c1f

LN6tKtVnRDPPzPfXEPhWNjuon2HaUvPjJQ > LbC5MAe9xMg5vgKLwHQ7ip8WCo79vYQAjW > LRcQ7GMsGQm7odHCMBXgVpzXT2UoJVp2L3 > LKptKU3zMPLNk8nLhFuwMYrARpTHa7cYgH > LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr


So your assumption about coin tracing is absolutely useless. If you are moving through BTC-E you have no clue about the origination of those coins.

Please don't lecture about wallets when you don't have any idea how it actually works.

Your test doesn't disprove anything either.   It appears you are going through many hops to get to and from LXA3i9eEAVDbgDqkThCa4D6BUJ3SEULkEr, so I'm not sure that tells us anything either.    I concede the address tracing can't be trusted.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 10, 2014, 01:26:35 AM
got my referral payment too.  8)

Yes, me too and it is the middle of the night in GMT+2.   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 10, 2014, 01:50:33 AM
It seems like the best point is a Ponzi scheme can't pay out something like 12% a week unless it is taking in a least that much a week.  It would seem that did happen last week and maybe the week before, but it didn't seem to happen at all the weeks right after the multiplication.   

Assuming the LTCgear is 300 GH, then that would be 225 packs this week.   Or about 500 BTC.   Seems completely out of whack from the weekly stories.   Either LTCgear has a lot fewer accounts above 1 GH and is supposed or there is real mining going on.   It doesn't take very many 5 BTC to 20 BTC payments to wipe out 500 BTC, let alone all the LTC payments.   

Anyway my prediction is that six weeks from now we'll be headed into another multiplication without any more knowledge.   

   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Episode on November 10, 2014, 10:15:20 AM
I've been reading this thread with some uncertainty and I still can't make up my mind... I have been with LTCGear since late September and its been very smooth so far. The only worry is that if one day you wake up and the website is offline you can't do anything about it just like with any other ponzi, not even anywhere to complain. At least with GAW or Zeus or any other provider if they shut down you have somewhere to complain and know in which countries they operate to file legal proceedings if you hold large amounts of hash with them.

So I understand if people are saying ponzi but I've been into a few ponzis before and it looks way different and I've been into ponzis who ran over a year, but they were all LOW interest/payout weekly, and not 6-7 weeks to ROI, also most pay interest only so they can keep paying longer, and not with your initial investment as it would be the case with LTCGear IF it was a ponzi :) Not to mention ponzi's pay you into their 'website account' which you cannot withdraw until it reaches 'certain amount', which gives them a leverage to shut down just in case of running low of new signups.

If this keeps going it will be the most discussed mystery of the crypto cloud mining services as know one knows anything :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 10, 2014, 10:38:40 AM
I've been reading this thread with some uncertainty and I still can't make up my mind... I have been with LTCGear since late September and its been very smooth so far. The only worry is that if one day you wake up and the website is offline you can't do anything about it just like with any other ponzi, not even anywhere to complain. At least with GAW or Zeus or any other provider if they shut down you have somewhere to complain and know in which countries they operate to file legal proceedings if you hold large amounts of hash with them.

So I understand if people are saying ponzi but I've been into a few ponzis before and it looks way different and I've been into ponzis who ran over a year, but they were all LOW interest/payout weekly, and not 6-7 weeks to ROI, also most pay interest only so they can keep paying longer, and not with your initial investment as it would be the case with LTCGear IF it was a ponzi :) Not to mention ponzi's pay you into their 'website account' which you cannot withdraw until it reaches 'certain amount', which gives them a leverage to shut down just in case of running low of new signups.

If this keeps going it will be the most discussed mystery of the crypto cloud mining services as know one knows anything :)

+1 ;D

Signs don't really fit, it is more or less the unbelievable technical scale of this operation that makes your mind spin...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Episode on November 10, 2014, 11:42:21 AM
I've been reading this thread with some uncertainty and I still can't make up my mind... I have been with LTCGear since late September and its been very smooth so far. The only worry is that if one day you wake up and the website is offline you can't do anything about it just like with any other ponzi, not even anywhere to complain. At least with GAW or Zeus or any other provider if they shut down you have somewhere to complain and know in which countries they operate to file legal proceedings if you hold large amounts of hash with them.

So I understand if people are saying ponzi but I've been into a few ponzis before and it looks way different and I've been into ponzis who ran over a year, but they were all LOW interest/payout weekly, and not 6-7 weeks to ROI, also most pay interest only so they can keep paying longer, and not with your initial investment as it would be the case with LTCGear IF it was a ponzi :) Not to mention ponzi's pay you into their 'website account' which you cannot withdraw until it reaches 'certain amount', which gives them a leverage to shut down just in case of running low of new signups.

If this keeps going it will be the most discussed mystery of the crypto cloud mining services as know one knows anything :)

+1 ;D

Signs don't really fit, it is more or less the unbelievable technical scale of this operation that makes your mind spin...

For me the scale is not an issue, for example take KnC Titan's and you'd have 400Mh/s per box, so you'd need around 400 boxes to have 160GH/s network and considering he is an engineer and IF in front of all the others, I assume his boards should be 2-3 times the size of the current market best MH per box, so if he has boards that can run 1GH per box then the maintenance is even less.

For some reason I also think he has SHA and other algos mining and LTC is just a base for him to do the payouts.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on November 10, 2014, 03:53:22 PM
The speculation has reached hyperbole levels.  It's difficult to speculate when there are little to no facts. 

When people take an educated guess and use that as a foundation for their next speculation it is no better than flipping a coin.  And that is from either side of discussion where it support ltcgear as a legitimate operation or that it is a long con.

It is very hard for any of us to be objective as many of us have a vested interest.  Either a desire to save others from losing money, have money invested in ltcgear.  There are those that also have agendas to spread FUD in order to slow investment into ltcgear to stay ahead of everyone else and those whose agenda is affiliation rewards.

I would be interested in seeing if people can take a step back from their subjectivity and be able to parse the facts from opinion.

For example:
Estimated network size is 300 to 600 GHs.

Supporting evidence : Share count lists by people posting shares

Invalidated by:
* Posting of share counts is based on good faith
* Is voluntary so some customers may not participate
* Data grows stale if not kept up
* Data is invalidated when shares are transferable

The failure of this as a metric is when we try to compensate for the inaccuracy from so many uncontrollable factors by padding the numbers up or down.  At that point we are adding our cognitive bias while makes the metric an even worse measure.  Instead we should look to try to control the scenarios which cause invalidation.  If t is not possible then we need to throw out or at least put aside that measure because it does not help.

Hopefully we can move forward in this discussion without throwing out wild @ guesses.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: FreeJack2k on November 10, 2014, 07:47:40 PM
I've been following this because I'm interested in what seems to be a trend away from individually-owned hardware and toward hosted/cloud solutions.

In the past, I've been burned by an ACTUAL Ponzi (BTC-Arbs) and the markers are much different. First of all, it appears that although LTCGear only pays out once a week, that is more a matter of accounting efficiency than anything else. I get the sense that this is a pretty lean operation without a lot of manpower overhead. Given that most typical ponzis stay in control of your "profits" at all times and force you to request payouts manually, or locks up your funds for a preset term of months, LTCGear definitely bucks that trend. A ponzi would want to have total control over the outflow of funds, so they'd know when to shut down (in case of a "run on the bank"). Also, given that the operator is himself a chip designer, having actually produced and sold working hardware in the past, it makes sense to me that he would - as a one man band - prefer to host the hardware himself, rather than trying to play whack-a-mole with tech support requests. It looked like he was selling basically naked circuit boards, before. Not the most user friendly thing in the world to put into service or keep running, I expect.

In terms of scale, it seems totally plausible to me. The business was built on the earliest investors and they've had the funding to fabricate a couple of generations of chips, at this point. It's their own in-house hardware, which keeps costs fantastically low. The funds they collect up front in 1 year contracts can go directly into infrastructure, fabrication, etc... It wouldn't surprise me at all if they were already mining at significant scale, before they ever started selling the contracts. Now, whether or not they have it down to a 1:1 accounting for every single share owned and ever piece of hardware deployed, that's the question. However, considering that Dogecoin merged mining profits are not included in customer payouts, I suspect they're turning a significant profit.

I would tend to believe it's NOT a ponzi, especially given the long track record. However, that doesn't mean it's risk-free. After watching that Cowboymining Bitcoin Co-Op go up in flames, you just never know what kind of catastrophe could hit this operation and if they aren't insured, everyone would be in for a real bad day.

This is the fun thing about this brave new world...the little guy can become a huge player. It looks like that's what may be happening with LTC Gear. I just hope he doesn't get too big for his britches and actually brings in the help he needs to run it effectively and legitimately. Nobody else should have to get burned by any more scams.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 10, 2014, 11:11:57 PM
I've been following this because I'm interested in what seems to be a trend away from individually-owned hardware and toward hosted/cloud solutions.

In the past, I've been burned by an ACTUAL Ponzi (BTC-Arbs) and the markers are much different. First of all, it appears that although LTCGear only pays out once a week, that is more a matter of accounting efficiency than anything else. I get the sense that this is a pretty lean operation without a lot of manpower overhead. Given that most typical ponzis stay in control of your "profits" at all times and force you to request payouts manually, or locks up your funds for a preset term of months, LTCGear definitely bucks that trend. A ponzi would want to have total control over the outflow of funds, so they'd know when to shut down (in case of a "run on the bank"). Also, given that the operator is himself a chip designer, having actually produced and sold working hardware in the past, it makes sense to me that he would - as a one man band - prefer to host the hardware himself, rather than trying to play whack-a-mole with tech support requests. It looked like he was selling basically naked circuit boards, before. Not the most user friendly thing in the world to put into service or keep running, I expect.

In terms of scale, it seems totally plausible to me. The business was built on the earliest investors and they've had the funding to fabricate a couple of generations of chips, at this point. It's their own in-house hardware, which keeps costs fantastically low. The funds they collect up front in 1 year contracts can go directly into infrastructure, fabrication, etc... It wouldn't surprise me at all if they were already mining at significant scale, before they ever started selling the contracts. Now, whether or not they have it down to a 1:1 accounting for every single share owned and ever piece of hardware deployed, that's the question. However, considering that Dogecoin merged mining profits are not included in customer payouts, I suspect they're turning a significant profit.

I would tend to believe it's NOT a ponzi, especially given the long track record. However, that doesn't mean it's risk-free. After watching that Cowboymining Bitcoin Co-Op go up in flames, you just never know what kind of catastrophe could hit this operation and if they aren't insured, everyone would be in for a real bad day.

This is the fun thing about this brave new world...the little guy can become a huge player. It looks like that's what may be happening with LTC Gear. I just hope he doesn't get too big for his britches and actually brings in the help he needs to run it effectively and legitimately. Nobody else should have to get burned by any more scams.

+1000. Nice said bro.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 10, 2014, 11:24:25 PM
Two things guys:

1. This sounds too good to be true, at least lasting for long period. = possible ponzi/semi-ponzi.

2. If this is a ponzi its not executed very well as a ponzi. = not a ponzi.

Just wait and see...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 11, 2014, 12:09:15 AM
You are breezing over the cart incrementing 9k+ units since the anniversary deal has been around.

That's potential for a helluva lot of hashing or a clear indicator where this is heading.


The other elephant in the room is multiplication. How is it possible given he is already the lowest pricing on the market and giving free hashing every 6 weeks?

At this juncture we aren't talking a few GH. We're talking about giving away 50-100GH during this multiplication. 234k - 468k USD for free? That's not chump change.


I really hope Chris is the little guy kicking everyone's ass but I have some serious concerns about the recent explosion of hashing.

There are enough little oddities that this "could be legit" but it's becoming increasingly unlikely the longer Chris avoids answering some simple questions.

How about him promising pictures months ago? Or promising miners with surveillance months ago?


Lots of questions...no answers



Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on November 11, 2014, 12:37:17 AM
You are breezing over the cart incrementing 9k+ units since the anniversary deal has been around.

That's potential for a helluva lot of hashing or a clear indicator where this is heading.


The other elephant in the room is multiplication. How is it possible given he is already the lowest pricing on the market and giving free hashing every 6 weeks?

At this juncture we aren't talking a few GH. We're talking about giving away 50-100GH during this multiplication. 234k - 468k USD for free? That's not chump change.


I really hope Chris is the little guy kicking everyone's ass but I have some serious concerns about the recent explosion of hashing.

There are enough little oddities that this "could be legit" but it's becoming increasingly unlikely the longer Chris avoids answering some simple questions.

How about him promising pictures months ago? Or promising miners with surveillance months ago?


Lots of questions...no answers

lots of wild speculation and conjecture very few facts presented.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on November 11, 2014, 12:41:15 AM
site is down for multiplication
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 11, 2014, 12:57:22 AM
You are breezing over the cart incrementing 9k+ units since the anniversary deal has been around.

That is questionable data too.   While you might trust the data there are indications that sometimes the order numbers are incremented by large amounts between very close orders.   Chris himself said that some of the stock comes from orders never completed.   (I believe that was in a post in the main thread.)   Personally I never create an order unless I have the funds to pay for it, but many others don't adhere to such a rule. 

In the end the only data that probably has some value is the data Sy collected.   Although that data has to be "adjusted" in some fashion to account for private sales of shares, some people not really being honest when the data was publically reported and people like me that choose not to report their holdings.    (Although at the time the data was collected I only had a 1/4th or 1/5th of what I do now.)   At least that is something real.

Another approach would be to look a clusters of orders coming from the exchange wallets.   One would have to include include BTC addresses.    Maybe the other coins and paid by shares could be skipped.   However it might take collecting a lot of transactions ids.

No method is going to be complete and trustworthy.   Maybe it just comes down the trusting LTCgear, which hasn't given any reason to mistrust them.   All these fears about the amount of network hashing are from the outside.   While there is no doubt there has been a lot of growth with LTCgear, there has also been a lot of growth with the LTC network hash rate.  It has more than doubled since July, and it has grown by 5x when I first considered buy farm shares where were soon to be replaced by qASIC shares we use now.   I don't see how the growth is out of line with the overall network growth. 

My real concern is that LTCgear appears to be completely dependent on one man.   That does make me nervous. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: funktrust on November 11, 2014, 01:44:55 AM
Why don't we get a thread going with a list of users and how many shares they have doesn't has to be exact but a rough estimate if everyone can work together to put some info up we can get a better understanding on how much total hash there is.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on November 11, 2014, 01:51:39 AM
Why don't we get a thread going with a list of users and how many shares they have doesn't has to be exact but a rough estimate if everyone can work together to put some info up we can get a better understanding on how much total hash there is.
Sy (https://litecointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=10539) maintaining a list, you may contribute by PMing your shares amount. list is not available for public.



Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 11, 2014, 02:59:30 AM
What is the spreadsheet up to in terms of hash rate?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 11, 2014, 04:20:52 AM
245 GHs total, some shares have changed owner but that won't change the total...

So i guess if i got 245 GHs reported the total is somewhere around 400-500 GHs, i am missing some big players afaik.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 11, 2014, 09:13:35 AM
245 GHs total, some shares have changed owner but that won't change the total...

So i guess if i got 245 GHs reported the total is somewhere around 400-500 GHs, i am missing some big players afaik.

Share transfer changes the total if those shares are reported twice by different people.

As artilectinc has correctly pointed out there are some factors which add uncertainty to your results. The best you can do is quantify that uncertainty and come up with a range and - ideally - the probability for this range. I presume that is what you mean by 'guess'.

Another approach is to monitor shop stock. However website numbers have been reported to fluctuate wildly. So I don't put too much credibility into them.

For what it's worth: It has been 12 weeks since anniversary sales started. Just to test upper boundary, if we assumed that 500 GHs have been added since then, that would be about 42 GHs or about 260 packs per week or 37 packs per day. (EDIT: I forgot multiplication. So in the beginning it would have been even fewer packs.)

Someone had reported to run a script to monitor stock. Is this still ongoing? Any historic data to back these figures?

And one more way to come to terms with hashrate would be longer-term monitoring of the pool statistics (https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools).
Does anybody happen to have some historic data from that site?
(EDIT2: Originally meant to track how large pool miners grow or how new players enter the field. On second thought.. this may not be useful at all if ltcgear hides behind dozens of addresses... Please just ignore that last point for now.)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 11, 2014, 09:28:38 AM
There was a nice jump in Hashrate in late Sep / early Nov, i think that comes close to chris being back from china - there was another jump a few diffs later plus a steady increase.

(https://bitcoinwisdom.com/assets/difficulty/litecoin-hash_rate-all.png?1415697907)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 11, 2014, 09:32:58 AM
There was a nice jump in Hashrate in late Sep / early Nov, i think that comes close to chris being back from china - there was another jump a few diffs later plus a steady increase.

Yes, but that is the hash total. I have a more fine grained approach in mind where one could see the actual changes in the large pools. (I think it is common sense by now that he is not just Solo miner #1)

EDIT: On second thought... maybe even to see those changes is not enough... one would have to track the largest individual pool miners and spot newcomers in order to attribute farm extensions/new farms to him...
Not sure if that is possible at all. But I definitely should have tried it before throwing few thousand $ his way  :-\
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 11, 2014, 09:45:48 AM
Whats the difference if you look at total hashrate and see it jump by 200 ghs or several pools with small increases that sum up to 200ghs? You still don't know if it is him or not and the number is the same...

But its still all speculations, there is even a possibility that he only sold already running hardware and not the new batch from china which is mining for him right now, being sold as new product soon - who knows...

So many possibilities in every direction ;D
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 11, 2014, 09:51:58 AM
Whats the difference if you look at total hashrate and see it jump by 200 ghs or several pools with small increases that sum up to 200ghs? You still don't know if it is him or not and the number is the same...

You may be right. Just edited my above post.

But selling old equipment or not - the total hashrate does have to increase. Be it constantly or with a huge jump. And monitoring how large miners increase may be enough to build confidence that ltcgear is that genious at work i'd want him to be.

As you said.. speculation everywhere  :D
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 11, 2014, 01:35:02 PM
If Chris continues paying out it further lends credence to the fact he is legit.  We cannot put this puzzle together lacking so many of the pieces.  It all boils down to being smart, limiting your exposure to risk, and profiting while Chris keeps payouts flowing.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on November 11, 2014, 02:23:01 PM
Whats the difference if you look at total hashrate and see it jump by 200 ghs or several pools with small increases that sum up to 200ghs? You still don't know if it is him or not and the number is the same...

You may be right. Just edited my above post.

But selling old equipment or not - the total hashrate does have to increase. Be it constantly or with a huge jump. And monitoring how large miners increase may be enough to build confidence that ltcgear is that genious at work i'd want him to be.

As you said.. speculation everywhere  :D

Gaw claims to be Genius at Work = GAW. Please do not compare Chris to that shitshow.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 11, 2014, 02:37:26 PM
Gaw claims to be Genius at Work = GAW. Please do not compare Chris to that shitshow.

yes i know GAW. i actually hoped it was mildly funny ... please indulge me. At the moment I really don't know what to think of them both.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 11, 2014, 03:01:18 PM
If Chris continues paying out it further lends credence to the fact he is legit.  We cannot put this puzzle together lacking so many of the pieces.  It all boils down to being smart, limiting your exposure to risk, and profiting while Chris keeps payouts flowing.

Not trying to sound picky, but continuous payouts don't tell me anything about legitimacy. Only that he has enough money.  :P

Your other statements are very true. But for a newbie, being smart has become so hard with scams lurking behind each corner... Maybe best choice is to buy some real estate, start a family, plant a tree and sit it all out.

Now that was off topic. Apologies.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on November 11, 2014, 03:03:00 PM
True, payouts and good customer service  aren't proof of legitimacy.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 11, 2014, 04:34:38 PM
245 GHs total, some shares have changed owner but that won't change the total...

So i guess if i got 245 GHs reported the total is somewhere around 400-500 GHs, i am missing some big players afaik.

Share transfer changes the total if those shares are reported twice by different people.

As artilectinc has correctly pointed out there are some factors which add uncertainty to your results. The best you can do is quantify that uncertainty and come up with a range and - ideally - the probability for this range. I presume that is what you mean by 'guess'.

Another approach is to monitor shop stock. However website numbers have been reported to fluctuate wildly. So I don't put too much credibility into them.


People not reporting to the spreadsheet likely far outweigh transferred/double counted shares. Sy's spreadsheet is the best piece of information we have and yet you are trying to discredit even that?

There was large amounts of stock available in Sept through early October, shares rarely went out of stock and the cart incremented about 50-100 per day. Orders were concurrent or "nearly concurrent".

The website/cart numbers haven't wildly fluctuated the entire time. That's an issue of the past month or so(huge influx new customers). Whether or not he is selling massive shares or the cart is buggy in reporting order #'s is impossible to determine.



Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tugwert on November 11, 2014, 05:02:10 PM
Not trying to discredit anything! You are totally right: this is very valuable data.

Just trying to point out that share transfers, if not properly accounted for, will change the total. I remember buying shares from you as well as from other guys. So for me it makes no sense to report my numbers since they are 100% transferred shares and probably already included in the sheet.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 11, 2014, 05:04:15 PM
Not trying to discredit anything! You are totally right: this is very valuable data.

Just trying to point out that share transfers, if not properly accounted for, will change the total. I remember buying shares from you as well as from other guys. So for me it makes no sense to report my numbers since they are 100% transferred shares and probably already included in the sheet.

Depends, a majority of the shares I was selling for over a month were replenished and then resold. They were transferred but not accounted for yet, technically "new" shares. Selling didn't affect my total hashrate until recently.

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: thaychuari on November 11, 2014, 05:09:52 PM
Just wondering, what Chris has to do to show he has a real business going? Pix of his farm? Wallet?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 11, 2014, 05:46:17 PM
Just wondering, what Chris has to do to show he has a real business going? Pix of his farm? Wallet?

Pics of the farm/farms.

Video of his ASIC hashing. W/MH stats, # of cores per board or device, items that clearly differentiate his gear.

Some statistics regarding where he mines, how much hashing he has, how much hashing his customers have purchased.

Clarification on how LTCGear adds stock and at what rate. Is everything online ahead of time or is he selling hashing as he's assembling miners?

He could ship a GEN 1 or GEN 2 unit to a trusted party to perform a video demo/review.


Any information at all would improve credibility, it's been quite an information drought since early August...

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 12, 2014, 05:23:17 AM
It would appear there were more LTCgear shares sold than I thought.   While the 450 GH number seems way too high, clearly 300 GH isn't.   The 1.25 multiplier is good but I now I think it is likely we will see smaller in the future.   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on November 12, 2014, 04:42:09 PM
It would appear there were more LTCgear shares sold than I thought.   While the 450 GH number seems way too high, clearly 300 GH isn't.   The 1.25 multiplier is good but I now I think it is likely we will see smaller in the future.
if we want to see this going we should expect less.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: FreeJack2k on November 15, 2014, 07:47:28 PM
The concern with a situation like the one I'm seeing today, with many people's payments being delayed while shares are simultaneously being sold, is the potential for a ponzi-like scenario to be unfolding, where he has over-extended himself and now has to use new sales income to pay people out. Even though he has an apparently legitimate history, it could have easily gotten away from him. So it's a legitimate cause for concern and one that he could easily assuage simply by showingthe farm and releasing some metrics on his operation for people to see. Right now, people are putting money into this without asking many questions. But days like today are liable to give more people pause.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 15, 2014, 11:29:30 PM
Every multiplication has gone like this.  If it were a ponzi like this, every payout will be paying contingent.  That is not the case.  Chris usually sends payments and within 2-3 hours, everyone has their coins.  No muss, no fuss.  Apparently someone DDoS'd him as payouts were happening.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 16, 2014, 12:11:13 AM
Ponzi ? He should not pay anyone on Friday and disappear forever already.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 16, 2014, 12:51:09 AM
Ponzi ? He should not pay anyone on Friday and disappear forever already.

If people are still buying shares then no reason to disappear yet.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: csun on November 16, 2014, 01:13:10 AM
Every multiplication has gone like this.  If it were a ponzi like this, every payout will be paying contingent.  That is not the case.  Chris usually sends payments and within 2-3 hours, everyone has their coins.  No muss, no fuss.  Apparently someone DDoS'd him as payouts were happening.

From spaming his customer review section, to locking up inventory, to ddosing during payouts... someone's trying really hard to give LTCGear a hard time.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: csun on November 16, 2014, 01:18:06 AM
The concern with a situation like the one I'm seeing today, with many people's payments being delayed while shares are simultaneously being sold, is the potential for a ponzi-like scenario to be unfolding, where he has over-extended himself and now has to use new sales income to pay people out. Even though he has an apparently legitimate history, it could have easily gotten away from him. So it's a legitimate cause for concern and one that he could easily assuage simply by showingthe farm and releasing some metrics on his operation for people to see. Right now, people are putting money into this without asking many questions. But days like today are liable to give more people pause.

Indeed. But perhaps overall it may be a good thing assuming LTCGeat is legitimate. He'll actually have to start giving transparency to convince people to throw more money at him.

Anyways, caution should be exercised in the coming weeks.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 16, 2014, 05:10:16 AM
Every multiplication has gone like this.  If it were a ponzi like this, every payout will be paying contingent.  That is not the case.  Chris usually sends payments and within 2-3 hours, everyone has their coins.  No muss, no fuss.  Apparently someone DDoS'd him as payouts were happening.

From spaming his customer review section, to locking up inventory, to ddosing during payouts... someone's trying really hard to give LTCGear a hard time.

Customer review section?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 16, 2014, 06:43:08 AM
Every multiplication has gone like this.  If it were a ponzi like this, every payout will be paying contingent.  That is not the case.  Chris usually sends payments and within 2-3 hours, everyone has their coins.  No muss, no fuss.  Apparently someone DDoS'd him as payouts were happening.

From spaming his customer review section, to locking up inventory, to ddosing during payouts... someone's trying really hard to give LTCGear a hard time.

Customer review section?

It was removed quite awhile ago. There was a review tab available on each product you could buy.

I think I was actually the first to review the 1k6x pack, then a few bots, then a bunch of targeted negative reviews.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 16, 2014, 05:08:45 PM
Ponzi ? He should not pay anyone on Friday and disappear forever already.

If people are still buying shares then no reason to disappear yet.

True.  I see no reason why that would stop as long as he keeps paying (assuming it is a ponzi).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 16, 2014, 05:15:21 PM
Ponzi ? He should not pay anyone on Friday and disappear forever already.

If people are still buying shares then no reason to disappear yet.

Depends on how many shares he could sell. Given the current size of the farm, the money from new bought shares weekly can't even cover the payout. If it were my ponzi, I would disappear last Friday.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on November 16, 2014, 11:40:55 PM
UPDATE Nov 16: Referral payouts in BTC and shares (interval Nov 6 – Nov 12) will be paid Monday, Nov 17.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 17, 2014, 05:12:49 PM
Chris promised pictures in September.

https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=6401.msg206404#msg206404

Not that I care, but it is not good that he's done so much to cater to customers but promised and failed to this.  If he didn't want pics to exist, explain why.  Promising to do so and then failing is more troubling to me than a lack of pictures (Because I believe pictures mean nothing, he can photograph his farm and still scam everyone).

His track record is what keeps me speaking positively of ltcgear.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 17, 2014, 11:28:31 PM
Chris promised pictures in September.

https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=6401.msg206404#msg206404

Not that I care, but it is not good that he's done so much to cater to customers but promised and failed to this.  If he didn't want pics to exist, explain why.  Promising to do so and then failing is more troubling to me than a lack of pictures (Because I believe pictures mean nothing, he can photograph his farm and still scam everyone).

His track record is what keeps me speaking positively of ltcgear.

There are lots of valid reasons not to take pictures of a farm if it is made up of custom boards.    However, I don't think pictures would prove anything.   Still you point is valid and he should at least provide pictures or say he decided against it. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 18, 2014, 05:41:46 AM
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/litecoin/difficulty

LTC difficulty up over 500GH over the last few weeks.   Clearly LTCgear could have 500 GH.   Personally I think it is lower than that, but it clearly is over 300 GH.    (From data SY collected.)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 18, 2014, 05:43:26 AM
. ophs!
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 18, 2014, 07:01:36 AM
Did anyone ever asked him if he (and the farm) can be visited?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on November 18, 2014, 09:16:25 AM
UPDATE Nov 16: Referral payouts in BTC and shares (interval Nov 6 – Nov 12) will be paid Monday, Nov 17.

Last update before payments was done :

UPDATE Nov 17: There is a little delay in payments, of one or two hours – database required some maintenance before payments. Referral payouts in BTC and shares (interval Nov 6 – Nov 12) will be paid Monday, Nov 17.

It was definitely not a financial problem because the money was on the account since 15th november : https://blockchain.info/fr/address/175AdLxDrCtjrkeivNBqoeJdK4Y5qiAZ1G?sort=0

I got my btc within expected time range. It seems multiplication caused some unexpected problems IMO. I hope he will be able to make this week payments without any trouble :)

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: blackouter on November 18, 2014, 10:01:39 AM
UPDATE Nov 16: Referral payouts in BTC and shares (interval Nov 6 – Nov 12) will be paid Monday, Nov 17.

Last update before payments was done :

UPDATE Nov 17: There is a little delay in payments, of one or two hours – database required some maintenance before payments. Referral payouts in BTC and shares (interval Nov 6 – Nov 12) will be paid Monday, Nov 17.

It was definitely not a financial problem because the money was on the account since 15th november : https://blockchain.info/fr/address/175AdLxDrCtjrkeivNBqoeJdK4Y5qiAZ1G?sort=0


Unlikely that payment will be smooth. There will definitely be some newcomers who would screwup something that Chris will have to fix at the last moment.
I got my btc within expected time range. It seems multiplication caused some unexpected problems IMO. I hope he will be able to make this week payments without any trouble :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on November 18, 2014, 03:47:32 PM
Hi,

Two changes:

- The anniversary coupon code will be deactivated

- The referral system will be deactivated at the end of the week for several weeks (possible permanent.) All referral hits registered before deactivation will be paid and no referrals will be recorded after.

In order to mitigate short term effects of this changes, a new product is temporarily listed, at a price which contain all the accumulated benefits of the removed features.

Kind Regards,
Chris

I wrote to Chris and he confimed that the payment choice "Convert to shares" will be applied whith new price in the future.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 18, 2014, 04:17:00 PM
Hi,

Two changes:

- The anniversary coupon code will be deactivated

- The referral system will be deactivated at the end of the week for several weeks (possible permanent.) All referral hits registered before deactivation will be paid and no referrals will be recorded after.

In order to mitigate short term effects of this changes, a new product is temporarily listed, at a price which contain all the accumulated benefits of the removed features.

Kind Regards,
Chris

I wrote to Chris and he confimed that the payment choice "Convert to shares" will be applied whith new price in the future.

That's great news. No more referrals!
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: NetGearSolid on November 18, 2014, 06:11:35 PM
Hi,

Two changes:

- The anniversary coupon code will be deactivated

- The referral system will be deactivated at the end of the week for several weeks (possible permanent.) All referral hits registered before deactivation will be paid and no referrals will be recorded after.

In order to mitigate short term effects of this changes, a new product is temporarily listed, at a price which contain all the accumulated benefits of the removed features.

Kind Regards,
Chris

I wrote to Chris and he confimed that the payment choice "Convert to shares" will be applied whith new price in the future.

That's great news. No more referrals!
+1  :D
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: sky_g on November 18, 2014, 06:16:58 PM
Hi,

Two changes:

- The anniversary coupon code will be deactivated

- The referral system will be deactivated at the end of the week for several weeks (possible permanent.) All referral hits registered before deactivation will be paid and no referrals will be recorded after.

In order to mitigate short term effects of this changes, a new product is temporarily listed, at a price which contain all the accumulated benefits of the removed features.

Kind Regards,
Chris

I wrote to Chris and he confimed that the payment choice "Convert to shares" will be applied whith new price in the future.

That's great news. No more referrals!
+1  :D

+100 :D
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on November 18, 2014, 06:43:00 PM
Itll be nice to click on the " show unread posts" button and not have to sift through 50 posts about resellers.... nothing against them tho
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cloudminer on November 19, 2014, 02:39:04 AM
Last update before payments was done :
UPDATE Nov 17: There is a little delay in payments, of one or two hours – database required some maintenance before payments. Referral payouts in BTC and shares (interval Nov 6 – Nov 12) will be paid Monday, Nov 17.

It was definitely not a financial problem because the money was on the account since 15th november : https://blockchain.info/fr/address/175AdLxDrCtjrkeivNBqoeJdK4Y5qiAZ1G?sort=0

I got my btc within expected time range. It seems multiplication caused some unexpected problems IMO. I hope he will be able to make this week payments without any trouble :)

Helpful info with evidence  :D :D!
Thanks!
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 19, 2014, 09:15:54 AM
Post removed duo possible doxing plus it is just a wild guess.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: boy2k on November 19, 2014, 09:55:18 AM
why was my post removed?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 19, 2014, 10:07:23 AM
why was my post removed?

Hi boy2k, nice to see you here as well. I didn't read what you posted but it got removed by Sy for this reason:

Post removed duo possible doxing plus it is just a wild guess.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on November 19, 2014, 10:42:06 AM
why was my post removed?

Hi boy2k, nice to see you here as well. I didn't read what you posted but it got removed by Sy for this reason:

Post removed duo possible doxing plus it is just a wild guess.

Mine was deleted too, was about LTCgear company info found on the web. It's not really doxing but whatever.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 19, 2014, 11:18:09 AM
Your post was about SOME company located in the right country with "bit" in its name, not even ltc and no proof at all that they are really ltcgear
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 19, 2014, 11:24:44 AM
Your post was about SOME company located in the right country with "bit" in its name, not even ltc and no proof at all that they are really ltcgear
Homepage: ltcgear.com
Isn't that enough?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on November 19, 2014, 11:31:30 AM
Your post was about SOME company located in the right country with "bit" in its name, not even ltc and no proof at all that they are really ltcgear

Yes and I said to use this information with caution :)

But if you search in this forum, https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=6401.1755 you see in this thread at beekeeper's beginning, that someone said :

Honestly, I don't know for sure either, and yes I don't see that it makes too much difference.  I'm saying that b/c I mailed something to him once addressed c/o the parent company 'Bitcage Tech'. The address was in Bucharest

feel free to edit again the name of the company, but it's already on this forum since a long time as you see :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 19, 2014, 11:40:34 AM
Ha didnt see the homepage, sorry about that.

This board is owned by the Litecoin Association so if anyone sues the board they sue the LA which is bad, that's why we remove such posts rather quickly...or not, depending on the time of day ^^

I did a google search for chis + the last name on that companies info but didn't find a good match so thats probably not him as CEO.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: organizer on November 19, 2014, 02:34:31 PM
Well Sy, there's this:

http://ltcgear.itrademarket.com/profile/bitcage-tech.htm
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 19, 2014, 02:36:30 PM
Ha didnt see the homepage, sorry about that.

This board is owned by the Litecoin Association so if anyone sues the board they sue the LA which is bad, that's why we remove such posts rather quickly...or not, depending on the time of day ^^

I did a google search for chis + the last name on that companies info but didn't find a good match so thats probably not him as CEO.
Ever thought that "Chris" might just be an alias? I have searched a lot from the internet, and i have found a lot. some things are little disturbing. But i wont post them here because im afraid that i might get banned or something since moderators are very active to delete posts.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on November 19, 2014, 02:40:48 PM
Ha didnt see the homepage, sorry about that.

This board is owned by the Litecoin Association so if anyone sues the board they sue the LA which is bad, that's why we remove such posts rather quickly...or not, depending on the time of day ^^

I did a google search for chis + the last name on that companies info but didn't find a good match so thats probably not him as CEO.
Ever thought that "Chris" might just be an alias? I have searched a lot from the internet, and i have found a lot. some things are little disturbing. But i wont post them here because im afraid that i might get banned or something since moderators are very active to delete posts.

Please dont troll.

Stated to have good information but withholding it.  No valid proof.
States he is disturbed without presenting what details he is disturbed by.  Incites fear.
Justifies not reporting information because of potential ban by external authority. Yet not warning was ever given and only doxing posts get deleted/edited.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on November 19, 2014, 02:44:11 PM
IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!

C is the 3rd letter of the alphabet.
C is the 3rd Letter in LTC
3 is the 3rd # in the new LTC Gear pack.

BOOM.

LTC 3.0 confirmed.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 19, 2014, 02:45:04 PM
Ha didnt see the homepage, sorry about that.

This board is owned by the Litecoin Association so if anyone sues the board they sue the LA which is bad, that's why we remove such posts rather quickly...or not, depending on the time of day ^^

I did a google search for chis + the last name on that companies info but didn't find a good match so thats probably not him as CEO.
Ever thought that "Chris" might just be an alias? I have searched a lot from the internet, and i have found a lot. some things are little disturbing. But i wont post them here because im afraid that i might get banned or something since moderators are very active to delete posts.

Please dont troll.

Stated to have good information but withholding it.  No valid proof.
States he is disturbed without presenting what details he is disturbed by.  Incites fear.
Justifies not reporting information because of potential ban by external authority. Yet not warning was ever given and only doxing posts get deleted/edited.
Im not trollin, can i post all that i have found?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: troy112 on November 19, 2014, 03:24:22 PM
Ha didnt see the homepage, sorry about that.

This board is owned by the Litecoin Association so if anyone sues the board they sue the LA which is bad, that's why we remove such posts rather quickly...or not, depending on the time of day ^^

I did a google search for chis + the last name on that companies info but didn't find a good match so thats probably not him as CEO.
Ever thought that "Chris" might just be an alias? I have searched a lot from the internet, and i have found a lot. some things are little disturbing. But i wont post them here because im afraid that i might get banned or something since moderators are very active to delete posts.

Please dont troll.

Stated to have good information but withholding it.  No valid proof.
States he is disturbed without presenting what details he is disturbed by.  Incites fear.
Justifies not reporting information because of potential ban by external authority. Yet not warning was ever given and only doxing posts get deleted/edited.
Im not trollin, can i post all that i have found?

Do it dude...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: troy112 on November 19, 2014, 03:32:51 PM
Well Sy, there's this:

http://ltcgear.itrademarket.com/profile/bitcage-tech.htm
We have a global community here in Crypto... can't someone from Bucharest verify this ??
From google street view, it's just a residential street.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 19, 2014, 03:34:23 PM
Well Sy, there's this:

http://ltcgear.itrademarket.com/profile/bitcage-tech.htm
We have a global community here in Crypto... can't someone from Bucharest verify this ??
From google street view, it's just a residential street.
What about calling to that phone number? Any brave souls here who can call?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on November 19, 2014, 03:54:55 PM
Guys, the farm isn't located at the address of the parent company. Even Chris said this month ago !

If you dig a little, you find out that the company have bought fans and chips, you can even find them on alibaba.

Hi guys,

At this moment, "Farm" is geographically split. We will offer opportunity to our customers which want to  switch their contracts in ECO mode, including video footage (this was original plan), but it will come with an extra charge.

Thank You,
Chris
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on November 19, 2014, 04:04:56 PM
Well Sy, there's this:

http://ltcgear.itrademarket.com/profile/bitcage-tech.htm
We have a global community here in Crypto... can't someone from Bucharest verify this ??
From google street view, it's just a residential street.

Not a residental street in of itself.  Try panning the street view camera to the other side of the street.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on November 19, 2014, 04:07:38 PM
Well Sy, there's this:

http://ltcgear.itrademarket.com/profile/bitcage-tech.htm
We have a global community here in Crypto... can't someone from Bucharest verify this ??
From google street view, it's just a residential street.
What about calling to that phone number? Any brave souls here who can call?

Is email not working for you?  Try [email protected]  If you ask nicely he may provide you good information.  He has been very forthcoming to me in the past.  I think the problem for many people here is tact.  They do not know how to approach a person with respect and politeness.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 19, 2014, 04:09:05 PM
Guys, the farm isn't located at the address of the parent company. Even Chris said this month ago !

If you dig a little, you find out that the company have bought fans and chips, you can even find them on alibaba.

Hi guys,

At this moment, "Farm" is geographically split. We will offer opportunity to our customers which want to  switch their contracts in ECO mode, including video footage (this was original plan), but it will come with an extra charge.

Thank You,
Chris
Of course its not the address where all the mining equipment is. I can find 3 different addresses for Bitcage Tech and im sure thats not all of them. I would say these addresses (or at least one of them) is the "office" where mail comes. But the same phone number is on every info i can found and someone should try and call to it.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 19, 2014, 04:11:52 PM
Well Sy, there's this:

http://ltcgear.itrademarket.com/profile/bitcage-tech.htm
We have a global community here in Crypto... can't someone from Bucharest verify this ??
From google street view, it's just a residential street.
What about calling to that phone number? Any brave souls here who can call?

Is email not working for you?  Try [email protected]  If you ask nicely he may provide you good information.  He has been very forthcoming to me in the past.  I think the problem for many people here is tact.  They do not know how to approach a person with respect and politeness.

It's a different thing to answer e-mails (and sometimes choose not to answer) than answer questions directly via phone call. You can pick what emails you want to answer without sounding suspicious.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on November 19, 2014, 04:12:59 PM
Well Sy, there's this:

http://ltcgear.itrademarket.com/profile/bitcage-tech.htm
We have a global community here in Crypto... can't someone from Bucharest verify this ??
From google street view, it's just a residential street.
What about calling to that phone number? Any brave souls here who can call?

Is email not working for you?  Try [email protected]  If you ask nicely he may provide you good information.  He has been very forthcoming to me in the past.  I think the problem for many people here is tact.  They do not know how to approach a person with respect and politeness.

It's a different thing to answer e-mails (and sometimes choose not to answer) than answer questions directly via phone call. You can pick what emails you want to answer without sounding suspicious.

And you can pick which phone calls you pick up via caller id.  Not sure I follow your logic.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 19, 2014, 04:24:48 PM
Well Sy, there's this:

http://ltcgear.itrademarket.com/profile/bitcage-tech.htm
We have a global community here in Crypto... can't someone from Bucharest verify this ??
From google street view, it's just a residential street.
What about calling to that phone number? Any brave souls here who can call?

Is email not working for you?  Try [email protected]  If you ask nicely he may provide you good information.  He has been very forthcoming to me in the past.  I think the problem for many people here is tact.  They do not know how to approach a person with respect and politeness.

It's a different thing to answer e-mails (and sometimes choose not to answer) than answer questions directly via phone call. You can pick what emails you want to answer without sounding suspicious.

And you can pick which phone calls you pick up via caller id.  Not sure I follow your logic.
How do you know WHAT the caller is going to ask? Not sure if i follow your logic.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on November 20, 2014, 10:17:17 AM
Well Sy, there's this:

http://ltcgear.itrademarket.com/profile/bitcage-tech.htm
We have a global community here in Crypto... can't someone from Bucharest verify this ??
From google street view, it's just a residential street.
What about calling to that phone number? Any brave souls here who can call?

Is email not working for you?  Try [email protected]  If you ask nicely he may provide you good information.  He has been very forthcoming to me in the past.  I think the problem for many people here is tact.  They do not know how to approach a person with respect and politeness.

It's a different thing to answer e-mails (and sometimes choose not to answer) than answer questions directly via phone call. You can pick what emails you want to answer without sounding suspicious.

And you can pick which phone calls you pick up via caller id.  Not sure I follow your logic.
How do you know WHAT the caller is going to ask? Not sure if i follow your logic.

I think he wanted to say that if the caller id is unknown or if it's a number they don't know they can choose to not answer. You have to leave a message on mailbox and then maybe they call back.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 20, 2014, 11:50:02 AM
Well Sy, there's this:

http://ltcgear.itrademarket.com/profile/bitcage-tech.htm
We have a global community here in Crypto... can't someone from Bucharest verify this ??
From google street view, it's just a residential street.
What about calling to that phone number? Any brave souls here who can call?

Is email not working for you?  Try [email protected]  If you ask nicely he may provide you good information.  He has been very forthcoming to me in the past.  I think the problem for many people here is tact.  They do not know how to approach a person with respect and politeness.

It's a different thing to answer e-mails (and sometimes choose not to answer) than answer questions directly via phone call. You can pick what emails you want to answer without sounding suspicious.

And you can pick which phone calls you pick up via caller id.  Not sure I follow your logic.
How do you know WHAT the caller is going to ask? Not sure if i follow your logic.

I think he wanted to say that if the caller id is unknown or if it's a number they don't know they can choose to not answer. You have to leave a message on mailbox and then maybe they call back.
That would be awful way to handle customer service. If there was a phone number on the ltcgear.com im sure the phone would be ringing a lot because of lack of transparency. It is easier to pick the mails you want to answer and ignore the rest. With email you actually see who is contacting and what he wants. With phone you at best know if the caller is someone you know and you know what the caller wants in advance ONLY IF you wont answer and he/she leaves a voicemail, and if you call back to answer the questions in voicemail you might be end up in a situation with unwanted follow up questions, which is the same thing that you just answer randomly when the phone rings. It does not take much from your brain to figure out these differences.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 20, 2014, 12:54:55 PM
To get back on topic and to stop this ridiculous phone bs - what's up with current numbers?

He is selling the new product like crazy and it's always restocking to 499 which doesnt really increase confidence...there is almost no way for that much hashrate to be added by him.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 20, 2014, 01:00:58 PM
To get back on topic and to stop this ridiculous phone bs - what's up with current numbers?

He is selling the new product like crazy and it's always restocking to 499 which doesnt really increase confidence...there is almost no way for that much hashrate to be added by him.

Is 499 just the max that is every allowed in the inventory.   Does the 1K83 actually go out of stock or just it go down to 350 and then back to 499?    I'm just not sure how to judge the 499 number.

However 499 * 1825 = ~91 GH that is a lot. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 20, 2014, 01:12:50 PM
I saw it down to 136 a few days back, bounced back later that day.

Today it started somewhere around 170 i think, back to 350 now - just enter 999 and click add.

And this happens every day - no idea how many are really selling though...but it makes me nervous.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: GordonGecko on November 20, 2014, 01:21:05 PM
Shouldnt that be accurate:
http://ltcgeartracker.com/ltc-gear-shares-stock
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 20, 2014, 01:23:22 PM
Chris is selling a lot of new shares (+100Ghash) and that is not showing in the network hashrate. This is very concerning.

1. If this is legit Chris has to have all the equipment for the shares he is selling
2. If he has all the equipment there is no reason to put that equipment to work even if the shares are not sold yet
3. We should have seen network hashrate going up by now

Smells like pon...  :o
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 20, 2014, 01:35:52 PM
What do you mean?   The LTC network hashrate has been on fire lately.   Something is kicking it way up.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 20, 2014, 01:43:15 PM
What do you mean?   The LTC network hashrate has been on fire lately.   Something is kicking it way up.
I have been following the hashrate daily and it has been around 1400 GHash for several days now.
Perhaps Chris started mining with the new equipment when we saw the big raise from 1200 -> 1400.
And big scrypt mining pools might change their preferred coin with lots of hashpower that affects the Litecoin hashrate.
Dont know what is happening, just guessing.  ::)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on November 20, 2014, 02:12:13 PM
You guys do REALIZE that people turn OFF equipment ALSO right?

It is entirely plausible that if Chris added 200 GHs of hashing power, and a whole bunch of other people turned off 100 GHs of old equipment the net would only be a 100 ghs increase...


The Hashrate doesnt only mean people ADDING to it.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: atlosas on November 20, 2014, 02:18:08 PM
That's wishful thinking. The gpu are long gone, switched to other coins and the asics are still profitable no matter their generation. So i don't think any meaningful amount of hashrate is turned off
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 20, 2014, 02:18:55 PM
You guys do REALIZE that people turn OFF equipment ALSO right?

It is entirely plausible that if Chris added 200 GHs of hashing power, and a whole bunch of other people turned off 100 GHs of old equipment the net would only be a 100 ghs increase...


The Hashrate doesnt only mean people ADDING to it.
This is true. I would argue tho that there is much more "adding" on the network than "turning off".
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 20, 2014, 02:19:30 PM
Yeah i do realize that, i even see that the increasing hashrate COULD be chris, as usual this is highly speculativ - i would love it to be chris, i need a new car! :D

But it usually helps to get more brains thinking :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on November 20, 2014, 02:20:34 PM
He seems to have an unlimited supply of the new hardware....
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lowky on November 20, 2014, 02:21:18 PM
That's wishful thinking. The gpu are long gone, switched to other coins and the asics are still profitable no matter their generation. So i don't think any meaningful amount of hashrate is turned off
+1
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on November 20, 2014, 02:22:39 PM
That's wishful thinking. The gpu are long gone, switched to other coins and the asics are still profitable no matter their generation. So i don't think any meaningful amount of hashrate is turned off
+1

1st generation Zeus with 37w/mh? I doubt that...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on November 20, 2014, 02:23:10 PM
If he does manufacture his own stuff and build his own chips I do not see why it is not plausable. Just because he isn't a big name like GAW or Zeus doesnt mean he can't be ahead of his times in terms of technology.

Tesla vs Edison.

But thats just my ideas :P
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 20, 2014, 04:01:36 PM
I saw it down to 136 a few days back, bounced back later that day.

Today it started somewhere around 170 i think, back to 350 now - just enter 999 and click add.

And this happens every day - no idea how many are really selling though...but it makes me nervous.

He could have updated the way inventory is handled with the new product to make it more responsive to people trying to abuse his cart.

I personally found it kind of odd he doesn't just base it on paid orders per day as a % as opposed to orders going to checkout.

He may actually add shares back after an hour as opposed to waiting days like the system used to be.

Who knows!?!

That's wishful thinking. The gpu are long gone, switched to other coins and the asics are still profitable no matter their generation. So i don't think any meaningful amount of hashrate is turned off

There's mountains of old ASIC hardware becoming obsolete as price drops and difficulty increases. Perpetual cycle.

Anything worse than 30w per MH is unprofitable at .1/kWh as of next week.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: ninh on November 20, 2014, 04:10:35 PM
I saw it down to 136 a few days back, bounced back later that day.

Today it started somewhere around 170 i think, back to 350 now - just enter 999 and click add.

And this happens every day - no idea how many are really selling though...but it makes me nervous.

Those numbers are quite random, sometimes I saw 344 instock, then 30 seconds later, out of stock.
There's no way that more than 300 packs are sold in 30 seconds.
We should not base our judgement on those numbers.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 20, 2014, 04:13:21 PM
I saw it down to 136 a few days back, bounced back later that day.

Today it started somewhere around 170 i think, back to 350 now - just enter 999 and click add.

And this happens every day - no idea how many are really selling though...but it makes me nervous.

Those numbers are quite random, sometimes I saw 344 instock, then 30 seconds later, out of stock.
There's no way that more than 300 packs are sold in 30 seconds.
We should not base our judgement on those numbers.

The stock is affected as people add it to cart currently and checkout.

Once you hit checkout it's removed from stock. I would "guess" he has made the system more responsive to this behavior by making stock become available "again" more quickly on unpaid orders.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 20, 2014, 04:25:57 PM
That's wishful thinking. The gpu are long gone, switched to other coins and the asics are still profitable no matter their generation. So i don't think any meaningful amount of hashrate is turned off

There's mountains of old ASIC hardware becoming obsolete as price drops and difficulty increases. Perpetual cycle.

Anything worse than 30w per MH is unprofitable at .1/kWh as of next week.

Yes, I just sold off all of my Zeus X3s because they were approaching the profit line (50k diff = no longer producing enough LTC to cover production costs at $3.75).  I believe Zeus sold around 170gh/s worth of machines (or kept them themselves) to mine with.  That hash should be on its way out soon but people are stubborn (hence why my Zeus units sold).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 20, 2014, 04:28:16 PM
I saw it down to 136 a few days back, bounced back later that day.

Today it started somewhere around 170 i think, back to 350 now - just enter 999 and click add.

And this happens every day - no idea how many are really selling though...but it makes me nervous.

Those numbers are quite random, sometimes I saw 344 instock, then 30 seconds later, out of stock.
There's no way that more than 300 packs are sold in 30 seconds.
We should not base our judgement on those numbers.

Just went from 345 to -3 pretty quick.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 20, 2014, 06:10:36 PM
Just went from 345 to -3 pretty quick.

I'm sure what to take from the order/stock situation. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lowky on November 20, 2014, 06:40:27 PM
Chris just edited the announcement on the homepage:
"NOTE (got many questions over this): Temporarily, payout in shares will be done at 8% over share/USD rate 1K83 offers."

What does this mean? He will pay 8% more for 1K83 shares??
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 20, 2014, 06:46:48 PM
Chris just edited the announcement on the homepage:
"NOTE (got many questions over this): Temporarily, payout in shares will be done at 8% over share/USD rate 1K83 offers."

What does this mean? He will pay 8% more for 1K83 shares??
How about same price as 1K83 pack and 8% discount. So same price as you would buy 1K83 pack with bitcoin 8% discount.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 20, 2014, 06:55:47 PM
Chris just edited the announcement on the homepage:
"NOTE (got many questions over this): Temporarily, payout in shares will be done at 8% over share/USD rate 1K83 offers."

What does this mean? He will pay 8% more for 1K83 shares??
How about same price as 1K83 pack and 8% discount. So same price as you would buy 1K83 pack with bitcoin 8% discount.

^

What the "temporarily" means is really the intriguing part.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 20, 2014, 10:13:50 PM
So the 1K83 stock is almost gone according to http://ltcgeartracker.com/ltc-gear-shares-stock.   I don't know how that page is collecting its data though.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: ninh on November 20, 2014, 10:50:57 PM
Chris just edited the announcement on the homepage:
"NOTE (got many questions over this): Temporarily, payout in shares will be done at 8% over share/USD rate 1K83 offers."

What does this mean? He will pay 8% more for 1K83 shares??
How about same price as 1K83 pack and 8% discount. So same price as you would buy 1K83 pack with bitcoin 8% discount.

^

What the "temporarily" means is really the intriguing part.

There's nothing intriguing, the new pack itself is temporarily, so is the payout in shares : "In order to mitigate short term effects of this changes, a new product is temporarily listed"
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 20, 2014, 11:21:12 PM
Chris just edited the announcement on the homepage:
"NOTE (got many questions over this): Temporarily, payout in shares will be done at 8% over share/USD rate 1K83 offers."

What does this mean? He will pay 8% more for 1K83 shares??
How about same price as 1K83 pack and 8% discount. So same price as you would buy 1K83 pack with bitcoin 8% discount.

^

What the "temporarily" means is really the intriguing part.

There's nothing intriguing, the new pack itself is temporarily, so is the payout in shares : "In order to mitigate short term effects of this changes, a new product is temporarily listed"

The intriguing part is temporary.

Could be new product right around the corner. Could not.

Could be end of shares for awhile. Could not.

Only Bee knows.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 20, 2014, 11:53:59 PM
Only Bee knows.

The slogan of LTCGear.  I am heartened to see product go and stay out of stock (even for a fleeting while).  Reminds me of the good old days.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 21, 2014, 01:58:30 AM
LTC network hash goes down (has been going down for few days) and Chris adds 400 new packs of shares to the store. Where is all this extra hashpower coming from? Is everyone else turning off their miners while Chris just adds more and more? *shivers*  :-\
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lowky on November 21, 2014, 02:37:48 AM
LTC network hash goes down (has been going down for few days) and Chris adds 400 new packs of shares to the store. Where is all this extra hashpower coming from? Is everyone else turning off their miners while Chris just adds more and more? *shivers*  :-\
Not just 400 packs, I saw it started with 400, and then droped to 300, then been restocked to 605, and then droped to 100 again, so I think it droped and been restocked several times...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 21, 2014, 03:11:59 AM
LTC network hash goes down (has been going down for few days) and Chris adds 400 new packs of shares to the store. Where is all this extra hashpower coming from? Is everyone else turning off their miners while Chris just adds more and more? *shivers*  :-\
Not just 400 packs, I saw it started with 400, and then droped to 300, then been restocked to 605, and then droped to 100 again, so I think it droped and been restocked several times...

Shares that ran through checkout and weren't paid most likely. There seems to be an epidemic of this now.

It would be interesting if Chris posted some numbers on %% of orders actually completed.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 21, 2014, 04:28:22 AM
LTC network hash goes down (has been going down for few days) and Chris adds 400 new packs of shares to the store. Where is all this extra hashpower coming from? Is everyone else turning off their miners while Chris just adds more and more? *shivers*  :-\

Right now the network hash rate is 1353 GH, on the 19th it ended at 1340 GH and on the 16th it was 1283GH from the 1192 GH level on the 19th.   I'm sorry where is the few days worth of going down?

Today: 1353
19th:   1340
16th:   1283
13th:   1192
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 21, 2014, 10:33:52 AM
LTC network hash goes down (has been going down for few days) and Chris adds 400 new packs of shares to the store. Where is all this extra hashpower coming from? Is everyone else turning off their miners while Chris just adds more and more? *shivers*  :-\

Right now the network hash rate is 1353 GH, on the 19th it ended at 1340 GH and on the 16th it was 1283GH from the 1192 GH level on the 19th.   I'm sorry where is the few days worth of going down?

Today: 1353
19th:   1340
16th:   1283
13th:   1192
After hitting 1500 GHash it has been falling. There was one pump up motion few days ago but after that it has been falling.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9974469/Litecoinhashrate.PNG)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: boy2k on November 21, 2014, 11:44:55 AM
pretty sure LTCGear isnt mining LTC, its just using it to regulate payouts.
The network is growing at some pace though! a little downturn would be nice before the Alpha/kncs etc all kick in...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 21, 2014, 12:27:42 PM
LTC network hash goes down (has been going down for few days) and Chris adds 400 new packs of shares to the store. Where is all this extra hashpower coming from? Is everyone else turning off their miners while Chris just adds more and more? *shivers*  :-\

Right now the network hash rate is 1353 GH, on the 19th it ended at 1340 GH and on the 16th it was 1283GH from the 1192 GH level on the 19th.   I'm sorry where is the few days worth of going down?

Today: 1353
19th:   1340
16th:   1283
13th:   1192
After hitting 1500 GHash it has been falling. There was one pump up motion few days ago but after that it has been falling.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9974469/Litecoinhashrate.PNG)

You are talking about a peak, there will be higher peaks.  Look at the picture you posted, it clearly show the difficulty is increasing.    I'm shocked that anyone would say it is going down, it clearly isn't.   In fact we are in danger of busting out of the 40k range into the 50k range.  Peaks and dips aren't important, what is important is the 3.5 day average and that is going up.

If you couple what you are saying about the packs with your miss-information about the LTC difficulty it comes across as you are just trying to spread FUD.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on November 25, 2014, 01:31:48 AM
Seems like people are not interested any more in this thread...
Can I presume that concerns are satisfied, or everybody is just distracted by 40K packs?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 25, 2014, 05:17:49 AM
Nothing else to say without more info from Bee.  Sounds like it could be legit but he hasn't actually provided anything to make a concrete conclusion.  Also reliance on affiliates is troubling along with some of the delays in payments.  Further, we are not sure whether he has the hash he represents.  His competition is insinuating outright that he is running a ponzi scheme but its just spiteful speculation at this point.  We just don't know enough either way to reach a reasonable conclusion.  So we wait for more information (and collect payments).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on November 25, 2014, 01:19:16 PM
Take your tinfoil hats off, lol
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: FreeJack2k on November 25, 2014, 10:25:20 PM
Take your tinfoil hats off, lol

Every time I've done that, I've gotten burned. Healthy skepticism is a good thing and I hope that competition puts pressure on each other in the cloud/hosted mining space, so that greater transparency prevails...because this is where mining is headed, at least in the near term.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on November 26, 2014, 10:54:57 AM
I don't think it's a ponzi because after a deep investigation :

- I found out that Chris is also shareholder on a 2nd company in romania.
- I found several private info about Chris and the 2nd shareholder of the company behind Ltcgear.
- I found some price inquiries on alibaba for some chips.

I don't want to provide this informations here, because I don't want crazy people contact them on facebook, google+ or other networks, but anyone who want to do a deep investigation can find all this informations.

IMO nobody who runs a ponzi will have so much personal info on the web (I found even out in what university he was), and have that much info that will make it able to find this people that easy if something will run bad.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 26, 2014, 11:48:21 AM
I don't think it's a ponzi because after a deep investigation :

- I found out that Chris is also shareholder on a 2nd company in romania.
- I found several private info about Chris and the 2nd shareholder of the company behind Ltcgear.
- I found some price inquiries on alibaba for some chips.

I don't want to provide this informations here, because I don't want crazy people contact them on facebook, google+ or other networks, but anyone who want to do a deep investigation can find all this informations.

IMO nobody who runs a ponzi will have so much personal info on the web (I found even out in what university he was), and have that much info that will make it able to find this people that easy if something will run bad.
I made some investigations too, not as deep as you. I can see there is same things on your list that i have found. I can see 3 possibilities:
1. LTC Gear is a ponzi and Chris is just plain stupid.
2. LTC Gear is legit.
3. LTC Gear is a ponzi, Chris is evil genius and somehow has fooled us all and will never get caught.
Im leaning towards the second option, the other two options does not fit in my mind.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 26, 2014, 02:47:46 PM
I don't think it's a ponzi because after a deep investigation :

- I found out that Chris is also shareholder on a 2nd company in romania.
- I found several private info about Chris and the 2nd shareholder of the company behind Ltcgear.
- I found some price inquiries on alibaba for some chips.

I don't want to provide this informations here, because I don't want crazy people contact them on facebook, google+ or other networks, but anyone who want to do a deep investigation can find all this informations.

IMO nobody who runs a ponzi will have so much personal info on the web (I found even out in what university he was), and have that much info that will make it able to find this people that easy if something will run bad.
I made some investigations too, not as deep as you. I can see there is same things on your list that i have found. I can see 3 possibilities:
1. LTC Gear is a ponzi and Chris is just plain stupid.
2. LTC Gear is legit.
3. LTC Gear is a ponzi, Chris is evil genius and somehow has fooled us all and will never get caught.
Im leaning towards the second option, the other two options does not fit in my mind.

For the 1. possibility: I don't think that some stupid people exist in this world, who manage multi million $ funds. It's sure a 0% possibility.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on November 26, 2014, 09:57:45 PM
Take your tinfoil hats off, lol

Every time I've done that, I've gotten burned. Healthy skepticism is a good thing and I hope that competition puts pressure on each other in the cloud/hosted mining space, so that greater transparency prevails...because this is where mining is headed, at least in the near term.

FreeJack, you're right.  Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.  Skepticism is key.  I've been invested in LTCGear for months now but Chris has done nothing to actually answer these questions despite promising to do so.  Anyone that thinks asking questions is "putting on a tin foil hat" is wrong and naive.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 27, 2014, 03:17:41 AM
Take your tinfoil hats off, lol

Every time I've done that, I've gotten burned. Healthy skepticism is a good thing and I hope that competition puts pressure on each other in the cloud/hosted mining space, so that greater transparency prevails...because this is where mining is headed, at least in the near term.

FreeJack, you're right.  Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.  Skepticism is key.  I've been invested in LTCGear for months now but Chris has done nothing to actually answer these questions despite promising to do so.  Anyone that thinks asking questions is "putting on a tin foil hat" is wrong and naive.

Yup, new product and no new information as has been promised several times now.

Scary stuff!
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 28, 2014, 12:57:02 AM
This is it! LTCGear is preparing to pull the plug!
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9974469/ltcgearStock.PNG)
Chris is selling 56000+ Ghash worth of shares at the moment with discounts! This must be the last sprint to get huge amount of cash from customers before he pulls the plug and disappears.
Can there be any other explanation for this?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: csun on November 28, 2014, 02:59:03 AM
This is it! LTCGear is preparing to pull the plug!
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9974469/ltcgearStock.PNG)
Chris is selling 56000+ Ghash worth of shares at the moment with discounts! This must be the last sprint to get huge amount of cash from customers before he pulls the plug and disappears.
Can there be any other explanation for this?

No he's done this before. He's removed the stock management to prevent people from locking orders.

All that site does is enter 10000 into the quantity and read back the maximum allowed quantity.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on November 28, 2014, 03:01:48 AM
This is it! LTCGear is preparing to pull the plug!
(https://images.weserv.nl/?w=800&url=ssl:dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9974469/ltcgearStock.PNG&fnr)
Chris is selling 56000+ Ghash worth of shares at the moment with discounts! This must be the last sprint to get huge amount of cash from customers before he pulls the plug and disappears.
Can there be any other explanation for this?

No he's done this before. He's removed the stock management to prevent people from locking orders.

All that site does is enter 10000 into the quantity and read back the maximum allowed quantity.

also people waiting for coupons, no one seems buying directly
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: jmk on November 28, 2014, 03:40:27 AM
Though it's frustrating as price per hash dropping all the time & could either re-invest every week or buy more hash rate at half what I paid, I tried trading the first 4 weeks,long story & not worth it for me personally... (tldr on that: I'm crap at trading & lost everything, quelle surprise), reinvested a couple of weeks & bought more shares & since last week only (!) have been keeping the payout. 

Maybe too late if he folds soon, maybe too early if my payouts dwindle & I get ROI but not much more... but I will feel pretty stupid if I have nothing in my bitcoin wallet & the payouts stop so just have to grit my teeth, stop reinvesting however attractive the deals & take the payouts lol

though 90% off would be nice... if there was free availability of those once I got paid this week I'd reinvest to the hilt even though I promised myself!! ha ha

jk
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: jmk on November 28, 2014, 03:45:25 AM
black friday sale just before he has to pay everyone out again though... does make you think...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on November 28, 2014, 03:57:12 AM
Though it's frustrating as price per hash dropping all the time & could either re-invest every week or buy more hash rate at half what I paid, I tried trading the first 4 weeks,long story & not worth it for me personally... (tldr on that: I'm crap at trading & lost everything, quelle surprise), reinvested a couple of weeks & bought more shares & since last week only (!) have been keeping the payout. 

Maybe too late if he folds soon, maybe too early if my payouts dwindle & I get ROI but not much more... but I will feel pretty stupid if I have nothing in my bitcoin wallet & the payouts stop so just have to grit my teeth, stop reinvesting however attractive the deals & take the payouts lol

though 90% off would be nice... if there was free availability of those once I got paid this week I'd reinvest to the hilt even though I promised myself!! ha ha

jk
90% off code was there for like 10 sec. same for the  other codes.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: NetGearSolid on November 28, 2014, 08:28:16 AM
black friday sale just before he has to pay everyone out again though... does make you think...

Since september (don't remember the exact day), payout is on friday evening. Since years, "black friday" is... on friday. So i don't think that it's a calculated move for so long
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on November 28, 2014, 10:37:00 AM
black friday sale just before he has to pay everyone out again though... does make you think...

With all the sales he made this week with 40k and 15k pack he doesn't need black friday to cover the payouts if he's running a ponzi, what is not the case IMO. I agree with NetGearSolid.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kitano on November 28, 2014, 10:45:56 AM
Hi guys,
I am really sorry I dont visit this old nest more often, but I am busy running between EU and Asia.
About the 40K0 deal - its negative balance for us now, but will bring more customers next week. (...)
And now, with the black friday discount? Is it a charity event?
Legit, or not legit, I don't know... But all this sounds a little bit weird.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 28, 2014, 10:50:53 AM
If Chris has removed the stock management how can he control how much people buy? He can't sell what he does not have. If people buys really fast in some point, more shares than he has actual hash power, what then? This does not look good.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 28, 2014, 11:43:36 AM
Hi guys,
I am really sorry I dont visit this old nest more often, but I am busy running between EU and Asia.
About the 40K0 deal - its negative balance for us now, but will bring more customers next week. (...)
And now, with the black friday discount? Is it a charity event?
Legit, or not legit, I don't know... But all this sounds a little bit weird.

It makes people think like a sales event of consumer products. Remember here is an investment asset, it is NOT your outdated mobile which needed to be sold out to be replaced by newer model.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lowky on November 28, 2014, 02:36:48 PM
Chills guys, I think everything is still under Chris's control, if he prepares to run then he doesn't have to update the payment page to tell everyone,
"UPDATE: Since Black Friday is still undergoing, Nov 28 payouts will be sent around 00:00 UTC, after all orders placed and paid today are completed."
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 28, 2014, 02:42:36 PM
Chills guys, I think everything is still under Chris's control, if he prepares to run then he doesn't have to update the payment page to tell everyone,
"UPDATE: Since Black Friday is still undergoing, Nov 28 payouts will be sent around 00:00 UTC, after all orders placed and paid today are completed."
Maybe he runs after a week or two? No need to run right now. Specially if he sells more shares next week. One payment after huge sell is not bad if you think you can get it back next week.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: CryptoGuu on November 28, 2014, 04:34:38 PM
Chills guys, I think everything is still under Chris's control, if he prepares to run then he doesn't have to update the payment page to tell everyone,
"UPDATE: Since Black Friday is still undergoing, Nov 28 payouts will be sent around 00:00 UTC, after all orders placed and paid today are completed."
Maybe he runs after a week or two? No need to run right now. Specially if he sells more shares next week. One payment after huge sell is not bad if you think you can get it back next week.

if it's a ponzi he will run today otherwise he have to pay 20% back and most people are out of btcs
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on November 28, 2014, 04:36:23 PM
Chills guys, I think everything is still under Chris's control, if he prepares to run then he doesn't have to update the payment page to tell everyone,
"UPDATE: Since Black Friday is still undergoing, Nov 28 payouts will be sent around 00:00 UTC, after all orders placed and paid today are completed."
Maybe he runs after a week or two? No need to run right now. Specially if he sells more shares next week. One payment after huge sell is not bad if you think you can get it back next week.

if it's a ponzi he will run today otherwise he have to pay 20% back and most people are out of btcs

I agree, they is no need to stay more. He got a lot money this week with 40k 15k and now black friday. If he have to run away it's today.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 28, 2014, 04:54:14 PM
Chills guys, I think everything is still under Chris's control, if he prepares to run then he doesn't have to update the payment page to tell everyone,
"UPDATE: Since Black Friday is still undergoing, Nov 28 payouts will be sent around 00:00 UTC, after all orders placed and paid today are completed."
Maybe he runs after a week or two? No need to run right now. Specially if he sells more shares next week. One payment after huge sell is not bad if you think you can get it back next week.

if it's a ponzi he will run today otherwise he have to pay 20% back and most people are out of btcs

I agree, they is no need to stay more. He got a lot money this week with 40k 15k and now black friday. If he have to run away it's today.
Yes. This is the day to run. But there is the option that he thinks he can get even more next week. Maybe he announces "happy hour/day" or something and extends discounts to get more people in and re-invest todays payments back to the ponzi. I personally dont want this to be ponzi, im invested and have not reached ROI. I just want to think this through and have a healthy skepticism so i wont lose more money if things go south.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: sky_g on November 28, 2014, 04:59:45 PM
Chills guys, I think everything is still under Chris's control, if he prepares to run then he doesn't have to update the payment page to tell everyone,
"UPDATE: Since Black Friday is still undergoing, Nov 28 payouts will be sent around 00:00 UTC, after all orders placed and paid today are completed."
Maybe he runs after a week or two? No need to run right now. Specially if he sells more shares next week. One payment after huge sell is not bad if you think you can get it back next week.

if it's a ponzi he will run today otherwise he have to pay 20% back and most people are out of btcs

I agree, they is no need to stay more. He got a lot money this week with 40k 15k and now black friday. If he have to run away it's today.
Yes. This is the day to run. But there is the option that he thinks he can get even more next week. Maybe he announces "happy hour/day" or something and extends discounts to get more people in and re-invest todays payments back to the ponzi. I personally dont want this to be ponzi, im invested and have not reached ROI. I just want to think this through and have a healthy skepticism so i wont lose more money if things go south.

I am with Chris for last 6 months and i keep reinvesting again and again. Lot of people thinking that he is selling more and more has power but no one know actually how much power he has to produce this kind of money.

If he has to run he should have run while back as there is no way he can pay so many people just by taking money in investment and re distributing again.

He started selling more and more hash power after Aug/Sept after he back from Asia .He must design some chip or many even found some chip which can produce a lot than normal machines................Hope so............I am also on same boat ..Tonight is a big night for all of us ...............
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: hawkfish007 on November 28, 2014, 05:07:12 PM
Chills guys, I think everything is still under Chris's control, if he prepares to run then he doesn't have to update the payment page to tell everyone,
"UPDATE: Since Black Friday is still undergoing, Nov 28 payouts will be sent around 00:00 UTC, after all orders placed and paid today are completed."
Maybe he runs after a week or two? No need to run right now. Specially if he sells more shares next week. One payment after huge sell is not bad if you think you can get it back next week.

if it's a ponzi he will run today otherwise he have to pay 20% back and most people are out of btcs

I agree, they is no need to stay more. He got a lot money this week with 40k 15k and now black friday. If he have to run away it's today.
Yes. This is the day to run. But there is the option that he thinks he can get even more next week. Maybe he announces "happy hour/day" or something and extends discounts to get more people in and re-invest todays payments back to the ponzi. I personally dont want this to be ponzi, im invested and have not reached ROI. I just want to think this through and have a healthy skepticism so i wont lose more money if things go south.

I have been trying to score some coupons for hours, but it seems all the coupons are being used up in less than a minute. That tells me coupons are only available in a quantity of 2-5, or less. I don't think anybody is buying anything at regular price, he is only selling 2-5 discounted items per coupon hence not making much $.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Val on November 28, 2014, 05:51:04 PM
Chills guys, I think everything is still under Chris's control, if he prepares to run then he doesn't have to update the payment page to tell everyone,
"UPDATE: Since Black Friday is still undergoing, Nov 28 payouts will be sent around 00:00 UTC, after all orders placed and paid today are completed."
Maybe he runs after a week or two? No need to run right now. Specially if he sells more shares next week. One payment after huge sell is not bad if you think you can get it back next week.

if it's a ponzi he will run today otherwise he have to pay 20% back and most people are out of btcs

I agree, they is no need to stay more. He got a lot money this week with 40k 15k and now black friday. If he have to run away it's today.
Yes. This is the day to run. But there is the option that he thinks he can get even more next week. Maybe he announces "happy hour/day" or something and extends discounts to get more people in and re-invest todays payments back to the ponzi. I personally dont want this to be ponzi, im invested and have not reached ROI. I just want to think this through and have a healthy skepticism so i wont lose more money if things go south.

I have been trying to score some coupons for hours, but it seems all the coupons are being used up in less than a minute. That tells me coupons are only available in a quantity of 2-5, or less. I don't think anybody is buying anything at regular price, he is only selling 2-5 discounted items per coupon hence not making much $.

Good call, dont think any one today will be buying without a coupon. or anybody here?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kitano on November 28, 2014, 05:55:05 PM
(http://m.memegen.com/qw4eo5.jpg)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: karmala on November 28, 2014, 06:17:10 PM
(http://m.memegen.com/qw4eo5.jpg)

wuah +1 this will not end good.... I bought 500 shares to participate in this strange thing. Cant loose much but can say that I was there :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kitano on November 28, 2014, 07:16:33 PM
My post was ironic / sarcastic.
But... The real LTCGear owner is Les Gold.  ;D
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on November 28, 2014, 07:51:16 PM
One out of every Three orders I make duplicates,
You can get 80,000 shares for the price of 40,000 shares and and 40,000 shares are cheap enough.
If you email Chris he doesn't even care, he gives out shares for free.
Whilst everyone in the buy/sell is buying tons of packages in the hopes of duplicate shares and they make 200% profit.

Chris should fix his site.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 28, 2014, 07:54:20 PM
One out of every Three orders I make duplicates,
You can get 80,000 shares for the price of 40,000 shares and and 40,000 shares are cheap enough.
If you email Chris he doesn't even care, he gives out shares for free.
Whilst everyone in the buy/sell is buying tons of packages in the hopes of duplicate shares and they make 200% profit.

Chris should fix his site.

Guess that explains all the group buys you are hosting lol.

Or is this a new bug today?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on November 28, 2014, 07:54:52 PM
Everyone knows about that bug as it happens to everyone.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 28, 2014, 08:00:29 PM
One out of every Three orders I make duplicates,
You can get 80,000 shares for the price of 40,000 shares and and 40,000 shares are cheap enough.
If you email Chris he doesn't even care, he gives out shares for free.
Whilst everyone in the buy/sell is buying tons of packages in the hopes of duplicate shares and they make 200% profit.

Chris should fix his site.
This is very concerning. Im guessing we dont see payouts today.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on November 28, 2014, 08:04:24 PM
This is news to you guys?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 28, 2014, 08:08:34 PM
This is news to you guys?

I've made a lot of orders, and never once had that happen.

It must be a newer bug.

Do the extra free shares get removed on payout day? Or never?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 28, 2014, 08:08:43 PM
This is news to you guys?
Yes
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lowky on November 28, 2014, 08:11:32 PM
This is news to you guys?
Yes, I've bought tons of shares, but never get free shares before....
Did this happen started from this Black Friday sales?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on November 28, 2014, 08:12:57 PM
This is news to you guys?

I've made a lot of orders, and never once had that happen.

It must be a newer bug.

Do the extra free shares get removed on payout day? Or never?

It happened before and it happened to other people I know,
A lot of people are scared to admit it.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on November 28, 2014, 08:13:19 PM
One out of every Three orders I make duplicates,
You can get 80,000 shares for the price of 40,000 shares and and 40,000 shares are cheap enough.
If you email Chris he doesn't even care, he gives out shares for free.
Whilst everyone in the buy/sell is buying tons of packages in the hopes of duplicate shares and they make 200% profit.

Chris should fix his site.

When you say he doesn't care, do you mean he did reply this to you or you have no answer to your mail untill now concerning this problem ?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on November 28, 2014, 08:15:24 PM
He replied once and removed the shares, otherwise he doesn't respond.
A LOT of people don't even bother emailing him.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lowky on November 28, 2014, 08:16:07 PM
This is news to you guys?

I've made a lot of orders, and never once had that happen.

It must be a newer bug.

Do the extra free shares get removed on payout day? Or never?

It happened before and it happened to other people I know,
A lot of people are scared to admit it.
Yes, this is really scary if it's true!!
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on November 28, 2014, 08:25:41 PM
This is news to you guys?

I've made a lot of orders, and never once had that happen.

It must be a newer bug.

Do the extra free shares get removed on payout day? Or never?

It happened before and it happened to other people I know,
A lot of people are scared to admit it.
Yes, this is really scary if it's true!!

yes. He should have a script that double check if shares were credited, and if they was credited according to the order receipt.

Well we will see if payout are coming in tonight, if this is not the case, we got all scammed. I have address, facebook and a lot of stuff about chris and the 2nd share holder of the company if this would happen. But let's think positively ! He made some great announcements for upcoming weeks (new share type who mines multi coins, escrow for share transfer...) I hope we will see all this happen.

Would be so much easier if there would be a little more transparency about company, farm and hashpower.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lowky on November 28, 2014, 08:35:31 PM
This is news to you guys?

I've made a lot of orders, and never once had that happen.

It must be a newer bug.

Do the extra free shares get removed on payout day? Or never?

It happened before and it happened to other people I know,
A lot of people are scared to admit it.
Yes, this is really scary if it's true!!

yes. He should have a script that double check if shares were credited, and if they was credited according to the order receipt.

Well we will see if payout are coming in tonight, if this is not the case, we got all scammed. I have address, facebook and a lot of stuff about chris and the 2nd share holder of the company if this would happen. But let's think positively ! He made some great announcements for upcoming weeks (new share type who mines multi coins, escrow for share transfer...) I hope we will see all this happen.

Would be so much easier if there would be a little more transparency about company, farm and hashpower.
Right, doesn't matter is a photo, video or anything else, people always say photos can be faked, videos can be faked...
Yes, I get it, everything in this world could be faked in 21 century; however, those things are not all about to prove something is legit or not; from my point of view, it's to gain more interactions and communications with your consumers, which will greatly reduce our worries, and it's necessary when you are operating A business worth of millions.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: levinhostar on November 28, 2014, 08:36:56 PM
This is news to you guys?

I've made a lot of orders, and never once had that happen.

It must be a newer bug.

Do the extra free shares get removed on payout day? Or never?

It happened before and it happened to other people I know,
A lot of people are scared to admit it.

omg you knew that and didn't told us that since days ??
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: aghanimu on November 28, 2014, 08:38:55 PM
It happened to someone and the shares disappeared at payout time I heard.
Texizat claims it happens 1/3 time... Can't believe that.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on November 28, 2014, 08:39:01 PM
I mentioned it a month ago in the main LTCGear thread.
I just happened to a pack I just ordered, I just emailed Chris.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on November 28, 2014, 08:41:22 PM
This is news to you guys?

I've made a lot of orders, and never once had that happen.

It must be a newer bug.

Do the extra free shares get removed on payout day? Or never?

It happened before and it happened to other people I know,
A lot of people are scared to admit it.
Yes, this is really scary if it's true!!

yes. He should have a script that double check if shares were credited, and if they was credited according to the order receipt.

Well we will see if payout are coming in tonight, if this is not the case, we got all scammed. I have address, facebook and a lot of stuff about chris and the 2nd share holder of the company if this would happen. But let's think positively ! He made some great announcements for upcoming weeks (new share type who mines multi coins, escrow for share transfer...) I hope we will see all this happen.

Would be so much easier if there would be a little more transparency about company, farm and hashpower.
Right, doesn't matter is a photo, video or anything else, people also say photos can be faked, videos can be faked...
Yes, I get it, everything in this world could be faked in 21 century; however, those things are not all about to prove something is legit or not; from my point of view, it's to gain more interaction and communication with your consumers, which will greatly reduce our worries, and it's necessary when you are operating A business worth of millions.

I agree. Even if he would at least send e-mails to keep us updated that would be helpfull and increase trust.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Letum on November 28, 2014, 08:53:24 PM
I got duplicates a couple of times with my orders ranging back to September. I only contacted Chris when this happened to me for the first time, but all duplicates(first one and more recent ones) were deleted properly and I wasn't paid for any on payout day, so there is no issue at all.

It seems to be just an odd old error in his database/order processing with no consequences. No need for spreading FUD, it's not a new issue...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on November 28, 2014, 08:55:23 PM
I got duplicates a couple of times with my orders ranging back to September. I only contacted Chris when this happened to me for the first time, but all duplicates(first one and more recent ones) were deleted properly and I wasn't paid for any on payout day, so there is no issue at all.

It seems to be just an odd old error in his database/order processing with no consequences. No need for spreading FUD, it's not a new issue...

I would be concerned about resellers... If they get double shares, and sell them what happen? They disappear from a buyer?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Letum on November 28, 2014, 09:07:17 PM
I'm not sure if you can move them to other accounts, never tried it. Perhaps somebody who got a duplicate order recently can try it out and post the results here(with picture proof).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Some1else0 on November 28, 2014, 10:55:09 PM
I'd say if Chris was going to run he'd at least give us an option to pay for this upgraded multicoin thing first. I say we'll get payouts this week.

EDIT:

Looks like we're getting payouts this week guys, the Bitcoins from this transaction went to wallets in a style that has always been used for payments:

https://blockchain.info/tx/5b05ef309b5dd4ad2abbeea1f6233889d5ad2dbeefc2da6aa3f7fd6da07b893f?show_adv=true

(http://i.imgur.com/5Kvw52M.png)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: seanmcevers on November 28, 2014, 11:01:49 PM
It's biz as usual we will get paid on worries guy's.
Chris is the wizard far beyond any of these other service.
Pay-outs will happen after I think it's 4:00 pm pacific time.
But the payments page already says when the next pay-out is coming.
That always has ment that pay-outs are on there way.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Jayke on November 29, 2014, 12:05:06 AM
Quote
Nov 28 2014 calculations for Litecoin:

2014-11-21 – Network difficulty 46816.02093 – 0.00135356 LTC/day / 1 Farm$hare (0.00016507 LTC/day / 1 Hw$hare)
2014-11-22 – Network difficulty 46847.29664 – 0.00135265 LTC/day / 1 Farm$hare (0.00016496 LTC/day / 1 Hw$hare)
2014-11-23 – Network difficulty 49818.48906 – 0.00127198 LTC/day / 1 Farm$hare (0.00015512 LTC/day / 1 Hw$hare)
2014-11-24 – Network difficulty 49818.48906 – 0.00127198 LTC/day / 1 Farm$hare (0.00015512 LTC/day / 1 Hw$hare)
2014-11-25 – Network difficulty 49818.48906 – 0.00127198 LTC/day / 1 Farm$hare (0.00015512 LTC/day / 1 Hw$hare)
2014-11-26 – Network difficulty 51792.20751 – 0.00122351 LTC/day / 1 Farm$hare (0.00014921 LTC/day / 1 Hw$hare)
2014-11-27 – Network difficulty 52646.50355 – 0.00120365 LTC/day / 1 Farm$hare (0.00014679 LTC/day / 1 Hw$hare)

Total: 0.00894931 LTC (0.00921779 for 3% bonus shares and 0.00966526 for 3+5% bonus shares)/ 7 days / 1 Farm$hare
Total: 0.01420526 LTC / 7 days / 1 ASIC Share
Total: 0.00071026 LTC / 7 days / 1 Hw$hare

Why does shit pop off every Friday, I dont understand? Just be patient.. More to the point if Chris undoubtedly packs up his tent and royally fucks off into the clouds what can we do, rest assure worrying wont change anything.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on November 29, 2014, 12:14:18 AM
It's not about worrying, it's about speculating and figuring out should we invest more to this.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: monkeydong1 on November 29, 2014, 03:12:08 PM
Is there also other people that did not get paid their ltc yet ?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on November 29, 2014, 03:52:20 PM
Is there also other people that did not get paid their ltc yet ?

I got paid 1am eastern which is 6-7 hours later than normal.

But payments were delayed cleaning up the black friday mess.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: seanmcevers on November 29, 2014, 03:56:10 PM
I still haven't got paid and it's the next day saturday the 29th.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: monkeydong1 on November 29, 2014, 04:14:07 PM
 
I still haven't got paid and it's the next day saturday the 29th.

Ok, so not the only one, a support has been sent.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on November 30, 2014, 10:00:05 AM
One out of every Three orders I make duplicates,
You can get 80,000 shares for the price of 40,000 shares and and 40,000 shares are cheap enough.
If you email Chris he doesn't even care, he gives out shares for free.
Whilst everyone in the buy/sell is buying tons of packages in the hopes of duplicate shares and they make 200% profit.

Chris should fix his site.

That isn't true.   He has a script that runs before the payouts to remove the duplicate shares. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Some1else0 on November 30, 2014, 03:27:22 PM
I wonder... do you think the people who didn't receive payout were people who purchased these duplicated shares?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on November 30, 2014, 07:18:31 PM
Chris's answer to a guy who accused Chris with the black friday deal:

Quote
Hi,
Guys, from what I am seeing, all this fud is started and manipulated by someone with an interest.
I am not sure how did you estimated Friday sales ( and, again, how did you estimate my present product volume, or it's characteristics and abilities, since I took strongest precautions not to make them public, exactly to avoid exact estimations and make other sellers life easy ), but I tell you sure you are wrong. I could tell community any time, it does this and that, use so much power and it's packed at this density, give chip pictures, give data centers pictures, just to please community. I will not do it unless I am sure it feeds our interest and not some other entity manipulations. The same policy stands for marketing events.
As others, probably, I invested in a batch of product which arrived in this period of year which spike in sales, with obvious intention to sell them.
I am definitely not stepping down with sales, and make place for others to sell 1 million years ROI products.
My opinion, go buy from someone else if you think we did not keep our word so far.
Best Regards,
Chris
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: jadefalke on November 30, 2014, 07:19:42 PM
nice to ready the self confidence of chris  8)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kmg on November 30, 2014, 10:20:46 PM
There is no proof that message is from Chris.  It might be, it might be not, but this thread should give him more reasons to respond than just one individual from another forum.  If there is hardware he would find a way to respond properly, instead all I see is psych ops at work.

For others sake I hope I'm wrong, but I still choose to stay away until there is proof of hardware.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on December 01, 2014, 09:31:45 AM
There is no proof that message is from Chris.  It might be, it might be not, but this thread should give him more reasons to respond than just one individual from another forum.  If there is hardware he would find a way to respond properly, instead all I see is psych ops at work.

For others sake I hope I'm wrong, but I still choose to stay away until there is proof of hardware.

You want to find proof for everything related to Chris? I think you need to go to the moon ;).
Anyway I just posted what I see. Makes no sense that I faked the above message for my interest. Btw it's damn difficult to mimic Chris's style of English writing. My English might be too bad for this. LOL.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: camsarria on December 01, 2014, 01:28:15 PM
Im the guy that wrote him the email and got that answer; i can assure you; the mail is real
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Larry W on December 01, 2014, 04:16:04 PM
Can you copy it so we see the Beekeeper user name on top left of response? Thanks, not trying to give you a hard time,
just want to be sure
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 01, 2014, 05:26:36 PM
Like Aizen mentioned it would be pretty hard to emulate Chris's writing style.

The response looks legit and seems on track after reading his hundreds of posts and exchanging a few emails with him.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: camsarria on December 01, 2014, 06:45:28 PM
It was chris and im not going to post ss s around; you can take my word if that sufices; if not sorry mate
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on December 01, 2014, 06:57:38 PM
If you guys send me about 3 BTC to cover the costs I could get a handwriting analyst to aliviate your doubts.  ;D
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kmg on December 01, 2014, 08:59:10 PM
I don't need proof for that particular message, I need proof of hardware.  There is too much belief going around this for my taste.  You are free to believe what you want, I will gladly join you if/when I get my proof.

I will tell you what I do believe.  I believe that he could sell his stuff for double price with proof of hardware.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 01, 2014, 09:21:01 PM
I don't need proof for that particular message, I need proof of hardware.  There is too much belief going around this for my taste.  You are free to believe what you want, I will gladly join you if/when I get my proof.

I will tell you what I do believe.  I believe that he could sell his stuff for double price with proof of hardware.

Double price wouldn't currently ROI for his standard products so I doubt it.

Double the crazy low coupon price maybe.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kmg on December 01, 2014, 09:39:27 PM
I don't need proof for that particular message, I need proof of hardware.  There is too much belief going around this for my taste.  You are free to believe what you want, I will gladly join you if/when I get my proof.

I will tell you what I do believe.  I believe that he could sell his stuff for double price with proof of hardware.

Double price wouldn't currently ROI for his standard products so I doubt it.

Double the crazy low coupon price maybe.

Will this help my point?

The price of any commodity tends to gravitate toward the production cost.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: LTCGearFinancial on December 01, 2014, 09:45:01 PM
What happens if LTCGear's hardware goes up a light?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: karmala on December 01, 2014, 09:45:35 PM
Chris's answer to a guy who accused Chris with the black friday deal:

Quote
Hi,
Guys, from what I am seeing, all this fud is started and manipulated by someone with an interest.
I am not sure how did you estimated Friday sales ( and, again, how did you estimate my present product volume, or it's characteristics and abilities, since I took strongest precautions not to make them public, exactly to avoid exact estimations and make other sellers life easy ), but I tell you sure you are wrong. I could tell community any time, it does this and that, use so much power and it's packed at this density, give chip pictures, give data centers pictures, just to please community. I will not do it unless I am sure it feeds our interest and not some other entity manipulations. The same policy stands for marketing events.
As others, probably, I invested in a batch of product which arrived in this period of year which spike in sales, with obvious intention to sell them.
I am definitely not stepping down with sales, and make place for others to sell 1 million years ROI products.
My opinion, go buy from someone else if you think we did not keep our word so far.
Best Regards,
Chris

lol, it would not be a difficult taks to manipulate fud based on what it looks like. Still hoping this one is the exception. Time will tell. One thing is true: take it or leave it. Nobody is overpromissing here :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: sandpaper on December 01, 2014, 09:47:49 PM
Chris's answer to a guy who accused Chris with the black friday deal:

Quote
Hi,
Guys, from what I am seeing, all this fud is started and manipulated by someone with an interest.
I am not sure how did you estimated Friday sales ( and, again, how did you estimate my present product volume, or it's characteristics and abilities, since I took strongest precautions not to make them public, exactly to avoid exact estimations and make other sellers life easy ), but I tell you sure you are wrong. I could tell community any time, it does this and that, use so much power and it's packed at this density, give chip pictures, give data centers pictures, just to please community. I will not do it unless I am sure it feeds our interest and not some other entity manipulations. The same policy stands for marketing events.
As others, probably, I invested in a batch of product which arrived in this period of year which spike in sales, with obvious intention to sell them.
I am definitely not stepping down with sales, and make place for others to sell 1 million years ROI products.
My opinion, go buy from someone else if you think we did not keep our word so far.
Best Regards,
Chris

lol, it would not be a difficult taks to manipulate fud based on what it looks like. Still hoping this one is the exception. Time will tell. One thing is true: take it or leave it. Nobody is overpromissing here :)

Would still be nice to see some definitive proof of mining. There is absolutely no reason for him to be this non-transparent.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on December 01, 2014, 09:51:12 PM
I don't need proof for that particular message, I need proof of hardware.  There is too much belief going around this for my taste.  You are free to believe what you want, I will gladly join you if/when I get my proof.

I will tell you what I do believe.  I believe that he could sell his stuff for double price with proof of hardware.

I think you are ignorant of Chris's objectives.  You think this is all about the price he can set for his product with proof of hardware.  There is more going on than that.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on December 01, 2014, 11:40:17 PM
Chris's answer to a guy who accused Chris with the black friday deal:

Quote
Hi,
Guys, from what I am seeing, all this fud is started and manipulated by someone with an interest.
I am not sure how did you estimated Friday sales ( and, again, how did you estimate my present product volume, or it's characteristics and abilities, since I took strongest precautions not to make them public, exactly to avoid exact estimations and make other sellers life easy ), but I tell you sure you are wrong. I could tell community any time, it does this and that, use so much power and it's packed at this density, give chip pictures, give data centers pictures, just to please community. I will not do it unless I am sure it feeds our interest and not some other entity manipulations. The same policy stands for marketing events.
As others, probably, I invested in a batch of product which arrived in this period of year which spike in sales, with obvious intention to sell them.
I am definitely not stepping down with sales, and make place for others to sell 1 million years ROI products.
My opinion, go buy from someone else if you think we did not keep our word so far.
Best Regards,
Chris

lol, it would not be a difficult taks to manipulate fud based on what it looks like. Still hoping this one is the exception. Time will tell. One thing is true: take it or leave it. Nobody is overpromissing here :)

Would still be nice to see some definitive proof of mining. There is absolutely no reason for him to be this non-transparent.

Instead of discussing about the content of the email, people are focusing on whether it's real or not. LOL
arti you could throw a 3BTC petition for the writing analysis, I'm pretty sure some will join, hehe.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: camsarria on December 01, 2014, 11:48:59 PM
Guess we will see who is right or wrong between today and friday. its going to be a long week.

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on December 02, 2014, 12:06:33 AM
lol @ calling LTCGear a scam with no proof.
Let the most profitable cloud mining company be and go invest someplace else lol.
We don't need you.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on December 02, 2014, 12:24:20 AM
LOL arti you could throw a 3BTC petition for the writing analysis, I'm pretty sure some will join, hehe.

AizenSou, this is a sure fire money maker.  You can then start a petition to fund a private investigator to prove that I actually hired a handwriting analyst.

Turtles all the way down.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on December 02, 2014, 12:25:58 AM
LOL arti you could throw a 3BTC petition for the writing analysis, I'm pretty sure some will join, hehe.

AizenSou, this is a sure fire money maker.  You can then start a petition to fund a private investigator to prove that I actually hired a handwriting analyst.

Turtles all the way down.

Hows things Arti?
The guys miss you on IRC.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on December 02, 2014, 12:31:10 AM
LOL arti you could throw a 3BTC petition for the writing analysis, I'm pretty sure some will join, hehe.

AizenSou, this is a sure fire money maker.  You can then start a petition to fund a private investigator to prove that I actually hired a handwriting analyst.

Turtles all the way down.

Hows things Arti?
The guys miss you on IRC.

Considering how much I've bought back in the last week I might have more skin in the game now.  I might jump back in this week.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kmg on December 02, 2014, 12:42:23 AM
lol @ calling LTCGear a scam with no proof.
Let the most profitable cloud mining company be and go invest someplace else lol.
We don't need you.

Like I said, you are free to believe what you want.
I do have one question.  why do you call it a cloud mining company with no proof?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on December 02, 2014, 12:48:44 AM
lol @ calling LTCGear a scam with no proof.
Let the most profitable cloud mining company be and go invest someplace else lol.
We don't need you.

Like I said, you are free to believe what you want.
I do have one question.  why do you call it a cloud mining company with no proof?

Because "No One Understands The Cloud"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecZL4Q2EVuY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecZL4Q2EVuY)

lol
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: FreeJack2k on December 02, 2014, 01:32:17 AM
I keep seeing "If you don't like it, don't invest" and "Don't invest more than you can afford to lose." Those comments ring REAL familiar to me, because they were peppered throughout the Bitcointalk BTC-Arbs thread, before it vanished.

The difference here is, people are being sold hosted 1 year mining contracts with LTCGear. It's not an "investment program." It's hosted mining, being sold per Megahash. This is what people should be able to expect...that the hashrate they own is represented on the network by actual hardware doing measurable work. But nothing about LTCGear is measurable. Nobody knows where the hashrate is deployed physically, in what quantities, which pools it is being used on, there is no independent audit (nor internal, for that matter) to demonstrate available resources and where they're directed...there's nothing but a number on a website that says "I own this much hashrate" and a once a week payment, which may or may not be late. Control over information that is this tight does immediately raise a lot of questions.

When people answer that with, "If you're scared, don't invest," that worries me...because I shouldn't have to be worried about these kinds of unknowns, if I'm actually buying hosted mining. I should at least be able to see it.

Now, I have read in the main thread that Chris intends to offer a hosting solution that includes 24/7 video surveillance, which presumably users will be able to access at will. This would go a long way, in terms of goodwill. Right now, I see the refusal to provide ANY of the information that customers and prospective customers are asking for (and the insinuation that it somehow tips LTCGear's hand to competitors, which it doesn't need to do at all), as very questionable.

I say this as someone who would LIKE to be part of it, but has been burned too many times to risk money on unknowns that shouldn't exist, given the nature of the product being sold. Characterizing this as an "investment" is a questionable justification for a total lack of important information, to me. I wish more people were asking more questions, so that there would be a pressure on these "cloud" or "hosted" mining companies to improve their transparency to customers...because it's becoming apparent that this is where mining is headed, at least in the near term, and I want to keep mining.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on December 02, 2014, 01:56:57 AM
I keep seeing "If you don't like it, don't invest" and "Don't invest more than you can afford to lose." Those comments ring REAL familiar to me, because they were peppered throughout the Bitcointalk BTC-Arbs thread, before it vanished.

The difference here is, people are being sold hosted 1 year mining contracts with LTCGear. It's not an "investment program." It's hosted mining, being sold per Megahash. This is what people should be able to expect...that the hashrate they own is represented on the network by actual hardware doing measurable work. But nothing about LTCGear is measurable. Nobody knows where the hashrate is deployed physically, in what quantities, which pools it is being used on, there is no independent audit (nor internal, for that matter) to demonstrate available resources and where they're directed...there's nothing but a number on a website that says "I own this much hashrate" and a once a week payment, which may or may not be late. Control over information that is this tight does immediately raise a lot of questions.
...

You are completely wrong.  You don't seem to understand LTCgear at all.    We are not being sold hosting contracts, we are being sold shares in a mining farm.   The shares entitle us to a share of the profits.    This is very different than hosted mining.   Your arguments don't apply. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 02, 2014, 02:05:06 AM
I keep seeing "If you don't like it, don't invest" and "Don't invest more than you can afford to lose." Those comments ring REAL familiar to me, because they were peppered throughout the Bitcointalk BTC-Arbs thread, before it vanished.

The difference here is, people are being sold hosted 1 year mining contracts with LTCGear. It's not an "investment program." It's hosted mining, being sold per Megahash. This is what people should be able to expect...that the hashrate they own is represented on the network by actual hardware doing measurable work. But nothing about LTCGear is measurable. Nobody knows where the hashrate is deployed physically, in what quantities, which pools it is being used on, there is no independent audit (nor internal, for that matter) to demonstrate available resources and where they're directed...there's nothing but a number on a website that says "I own this much hashrate" and a once a week payment, which may or may not be late. Control over information that is this tight does immediately raise a lot of questions.
...

You are completely wrong.  You don't seem to understand LTCgear at all.    We are not being sold hosting contracts, we are being sold shares in a mining farm.   The shares entitle us to a share of the profits.    This is very different than hosted mining.   Your arguments don't apply.

If we apply share approach, then I would like to know how many outstanding shares there are, and profit pool I am taking my part in...
The way Chris operates with shares is it is clearly hash capacity, not part of equity.

Whatever approach you take, I believe everybody would agree:
I would sleep much better and invest much more if I know what is behind.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Texizat on December 02, 2014, 02:34:05 AM
Sounds like you'll sleep better not investing in cryptocurrency.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 02, 2014, 02:51:14 AM
Sounds like you'll sleep better not investing in cryptocurrency.

Investing in cryptocurrency would mean buying BTC or LTC or any other cryptocurrency (surprise).
In this case we are investing in a cryptocurrency mining enterprise (or we think so).
In reality we may be financing - who knows what?

I am absolutely happy with payments and ROI, but I think certain disclosure at least would be beneficial to all of us.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 02, 2014, 03:20:18 AM
I keep seeing "If you don't like it, don't invest" and "Don't invest more than you can afford to lose." Those comments ring REAL familiar to me, because they were peppered throughout the Bitcointalk BTC-Arbs thread, before it vanished.


Yup same story was quoted over and over by the big 3 failures as well. Good ole Fibonacci, Alpha, & Flower.

Sadly the rest of your post sums up the state of affairs for ALL CLOUD MINING providers. There is no proof of anything by any of them. There are no audits. There is no proof of solvency. Nothing.

There are simply payouts at X for Y hashing. As it stands LTCGear is the only cloud provider even remotely worth investing in.

I agree it is sad/pathetic that we don't get a little information but it is what it is at this point.

Chris will not budge regarding information, that's clear enough.

I will say that out of all the schemes/ponzi's and other crap we've seen there's enough oddities about this one that may give it some credibility.

Mods/going out of stock/referral program a year late/FPGA shipped/free flowing payments.

I just hope this train keeps on rolling.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on December 02, 2014, 06:23:18 AM
I keep seeing "If you don't like it, don't invest" and "Don't invest more than you can afford to lose." Those comments ring REAL familiar to me, because they were peppered throughout the Bitcointalk BTC-Arbs thread, before it vanished.

The difference here is, people are being sold hosted 1 year mining contracts with LTCGear. It's not an "investment program." It's hosted mining, being sold per Megahash. This is what people should be able to expect...that the hashrate they own is represented on the network by actual hardware doing measurable work. But nothing about LTCGear is measurable. Nobody knows where the hashrate is deployed physically, in what quantities, which pools it is being used on, there is no independent audit (nor internal, for that matter) to demonstrate available resources and where they're directed...there's nothing but a number on a website that says "I own this much hashrate" and a once a week payment, which may or may not be late. Control over information that is this tight does immediately raise a lot of questions.
...

You are completely wrong.  You don't seem to understand LTCgear at all.    We are not being sold hosting contracts, we are being sold shares in a mining farm.   The shares entitle us to a share of the profits.    This is very different than hosted mining.   Your arguments don't apply.

If we apply share approach, then I would like to know how many outstanding shares there are, and profit pool I am taking my part in...
The way Chris operates with shares is it is clearly hash capacity, not part of equity.

Whatever approach you take, I believe everybody would agree:
I would sleep much better and invest much more if I know what is behind.

If sleep is a problem for you then you are in over your head and this isn't the investment for you.   

Sure I would like to know more, but at some point there is some faith and good will built up.   Chris could publish numbers and that would probably cause a whole lot more grief and frustration.   Some would think he is lying, some would think there is too little hashing and others would think there is too much hashing.   Unfortunately, knowing the numbers isn't going to solve this issue. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kmg on December 02, 2014, 09:16:25 AM
It should't be only about profit promises.  Cryptocurrencies are currently full of scams, so users and supporters should raise the standards of doing business.  I find the popularity of LTCGear concerning because it sets the standards low.  For LTC to succeed the whole ecosystem has to be better, because it can be better.  The longer it takes, the longer will be the path to success.

I guess we are long way from there and greed comes first.  I will not support low standards.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on December 02, 2014, 10:14:45 AM
double post.. seems there was a bug...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johansen on December 02, 2014, 10:16:11 AM
I keep seeing "If you don't like it, don't invest" and "Don't invest more than you can afford to lose." Those comments ring REAL familiar to me, because they were peppered throughout the Bitcointalk BTC-Arbs thread, before it vanished.


 There is no proof of anything by any of them. There are no audits. There is no proof of solvency. Nothing.


The only proof we can have is the company report.

You can get this report for any romanian company with update every 3 month at http://www.risco.ro/
It's the equivalent of the Chamber of Commerce where every company information can be found in every country.

About hashrate, I just want to say that so far, no cloud mining company provide this info. I asked Zeushash, hashie about their hashrate and they never answered about it. Seems it's a big secret for every cloud company lol.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: FreeJack2k on December 02, 2014, 08:25:40 PM
You are completely wrong.  You don't seem to understand LTCgear at all.    We are not being sold hosting contracts, we are being sold shares in a mining farm.   The shares entitle us to a share of the profits.    This is very different than hosted mining.   Your arguments don't apply.

If that's the case, then why is it that on the product page, the category is "Hosted mining (shares)" and on each individual product, the disclaimer "Hosting and power costs are included for one year. After each year, a power/hosting/maintenance has to be payed to maintain ownership for another year." Don't sell it as hosted mining, if that's not what it is...and don't denominate it in MH to further confuse people about what they're actually buying.

There was a lot of "faith and good will" built up in bitcoin-trader.biz, too. It lasted for a year or so before it collapsed. Past performance is never a guarantee of future results, in any "investment." Yet when I buy hashrate, I expect it to perform and pay out in accordance with difficulty and uptime...that's a reasonable risk to take on, in mining. I don't think miners should be forced to ALSO take on the risk of their stuff suddenly vanishing without a trace, with no one in the real world to pursue about recovering their funds. But that's what all of these "cloud" mining businesses are requiring...and I want that to change. Everyone should demand more clarity on what they're putting money into and this is across the board, with these companies. I'm not just singling out LTCGear, although it has proven to be very popular and yet is the least transparent of all of them, I think.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on December 02, 2014, 08:41:49 PM
I believe FreeJack is correct.  We are buying shares in a farm.  That means cloud mining.  We are purchasing shares -- shares are 100kh/s (hence cloud mining).  To say otherwise is incorrect.

Further, his overall point is true.  Past performance does not guarantee future performance, however, it does establish familiarity and trust.  Chris is not an unknown.  Plenty of people know information about his operations, his compan(y)(ies) and even his full name and educational background.  He also has stuck his neck out for his customers and repeatedly delivered on his promises (other than pictures of the farm which he did not directly promise but rather said he would offer a paid product for doubters to have a remote video feed which could have been tongue and cheek (doesn't come across on the 'net as clearly as in person)).

I know I control Gh/s of scrypt hash thanks to LTCGear.  I get paid out on that massive hashrate (precisely).  To say LTCGear isn't a cloud mining service is erroneous.

That being said, Chris has clarified the maintenance fee won't apply, so share age doesn't matter.  We own the hash we bought but there may be fees to convert qASICs to a new product coming down the pike...

We all have to wait for Chris before we get any clarity at all....
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: FreeJack2k on December 02, 2014, 08:53:15 PM
I read through the business report johansen posted on BitCage Tech and if that is indeed the company that owns/operates this, it is somewhat reassuring. I have never believed this to be a pure ponzi scheme, of course there's ample evidence that Chris is a hardware developer and he's produced hardware that people have seen and used with success. So I don't doubt that they have a farm of substantial size. My worry has always only been the fact that, in the absence of any auditing or metrics, people have no assurance that mismanagement of the hashrate being sold has not gone fractional, and that would be DANGEROUSLY easy to have happen. All it would take is selling hashrate that you expected to have up one week, but didn't. Then it becomes a scramble to catch up and you're having to steal from Peter to pay Paul and it becomes a semi-ponzi as they try to keep up. The repeated reports of late payments only feeds that worry.

However, I do think it's probable that this is the company and that Chris is actually the "Cristian" named as 70% owner of BitCage Tech. So that's not something I'm in doubt on and I do believe it's a legit farm...so people should not misunderstand me. My ONLY wish here is for an increase in reporting or transparency to clients and a very clear message on what it is that people are buying, because the website leads you to believe you are buying hosted mining with power pre-paid for one year and it seems other people have taken to seeing it as some kind of "investment program," which is not how it's being sold.

Bitcoin-trader.biz came under fire for not publishing proof of solvency, then claimed that they were "hacked" in the process of moving funds to an address that could be shown to prove it. Of course, that address was never published and they vanished, with the head of the operation claiming that he had always opposed a proof of solvency and now look what happened as a result...well, seeya! The hacker story is getting real tired, with these scams...and they never even attempt to sound plausible. The hacker demanded a ransom of 25% to return 100% of the Bitcoin...seriously, people are expected to believe that? It's ALMOST as plausible as BTC-Arbs claiming to have been bought by another company, who then conducted an audit that revealed the Heartbleed bug had made all the money go bye-bye. Because NO company does their due diligence and audits a potential buyout  BEFORE they acquire it, right?

I just want to see this community start asking a lot more questions and stop being taken advantage of. God knows, I'm done with doing that. But I see the mindless cult-like following that GAW has achieved and a lot of the apologetics in LTCGear saying "Don't like it, don't invest, Chris is the best," and it worries me that these pied pipers continue to get away with playing their tunes, with nobody asking where they're being lead...in spite of all the times we've been burned, as a community.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on December 02, 2014, 09:48:48 PM
FreeJack.  I understand.  We both got taken by Alpha.  I rushed into placing a pre-order with them but I did not give them any of my money after that because they were complete jerks.  LTCGear has been a breath of fresh air.

As I've said before, LTCGear, if its a scam, should keep scamming me like this.  I've nearly made back all of my money lost in Alpha and Zeus and sometime in January I should break even overall.  Maybe then I can start breathing freely.  You never know in crypto.

Anyone that attacks you for voicing your concerns is narrow minded but those people exist in life.  They aren't going to appreciate your analysis, your reasoning or your perspective as a long time member of this community.  Sometimes the only way some people learn is by getting burned and then stopping to put their fingers in the fire...

That's not necessarily a bad thing because that lesson will stay with them forever.  We just don't know enough to make any conclusions about LTCGear.  You've summarized the situation quite well.

Chris is involved in BitCage Tech in Romania.  He has a farm.  He's never missed a payment.  He could disappear tomorrow or he could continuing changing people's lives by generously sharing his farm's profits with us all.  He's in charge and we're just along for the ride.  That's both scary and thrilling.  Hopefully I break even before the ride stops (or the tracks end sending us on a bad ride like RollerCoaster Tycoon).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 02, 2014, 09:55:29 PM
Freejack2k - Your concerns are all well founded. The keys however lie with Chris/Beekeeper, until he wants to open up, all the complaining and badgering in the world won't change it. We've been trying for months!

Honestly, with exception to physically visiting one of the mining facilities and putting your hands on a hashing miner, what would it take to prove legitimacy?

Is that a realistic expectation for a company of this nature?

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: FreeJack2k on December 02, 2014, 10:34:23 PM
I think I'm motivated by two things. The first (and strongest) is a desire to stay involved in mining and I can see the writing on the wall, with that. Owning your own hardware and operating it is not going to be feasible much longer for small to mid-size miners. So we're seeing a migration to the "cloud" which, in light of how the current offerings are operating, is somewhat treacherous ground to tread. The second is the high potential for a seriously negative impact in the court of public opinion, when it comes to crypto in general and Litecoin specifically. People tend to attach negative experiences to the coin they were involved with. Lose a ton of money in Mt. Gox and it's "Seriously, screw Bitcoin" for a lot of newbies.

So now, I'm finding myself becoming an evangelist not only for no more pre-ordering on ANY hardware in development, but greater transparency, clarity, truthful advertising and reporting metrics among cloud mining concerns.

Personally, I think I'd feel a lot more comfortable if the operator of LTCGear did not insist on anonymity (especially if he is one of those mentioned as primary shareholder in BitCage Tech), and if we had photos of their farms (even if we don't know where they are geographically). Certain information I can understand them not wanting to reveal...specifically related to their size. They may want to appear larger than they are, or they may not want to appear AS large as they are. I get that...but insisting on anonymity when you're running a legitimate business, to me, makes me ask questions.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lowky on December 02, 2014, 10:43:38 PM
I think I'm motivated by two things. The first (and strongest) is a desire to stay involved in mining and I can see the writing on the wall, with that. Owning your own hardware and operating it is not going to be feasible much longer for small to mid-size miners. So we're seeing a migration to the "cloud" which, in light of how the current offerings are operating, is somewhat treacherous ground to tread. The second is the high potential for a seriously negative impact in the court of public opinion, when it comes to crypto in general and Litecoin specifically. People tend to attach negative experiences to the coin they were involved with. Lose a ton of money in Mt. Gox and it's "Seriously, screw Bitcoin" for a lot of newbies.

So now, I'm finding myself becoming an evangelist not only for no more pre-ordering on ANY hardware in development, but greater transparency, clarity, truthful advertising and reporting metrics among cloud mining concerns.

Personally, I think I'd feel a lot more comfortable if the operator of LTCGear did not insist on anonymity (especially if he is one of those mentioned as primary shareholder in BitCage Tech), and if we had photos of their farms (even if we don't know where they are geographically). Certain information I can understand them not wanting to reveal...specifically related to their size. They may want to appear larger than they are, or they may not want to appear AS large as they are. I get that...but insisting on anonymity when you're running a legitimate business, to me, makes me ask questions.
+1
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 02, 2014, 10:58:17 PM
I'm in the same boat as you FreeJack. The problem is your two points create a dichotomy.

If you want to be involved in mining, you are pretty well forced to pick a cloud provider. Unfortunately NONE of the cloud providers currently available are presenting proof of anything.

If an alternate were to pop up that provided some means of legitimacy or "proof of solvency", I would definitely support them but we have no such option as of today.

As it stands, you pick your best horse, or sit out at this juncture.

So now, I'm finding myself becoming an evangelist not only for no more pre-ordering on ANY hardware in development, but greater transparency, clarity, truthful advertising and reporting metrics among cloud mining concerns.

I absolutely agree there.


Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: FreeJack2k on December 02, 2014, 11:05:05 PM
If you want to be involved in mining, you are pretty well forced to pick a cloud provider. Unfortunately NONE of the cloud providers currently available are presenting proof of anything.

Sure, which is why I'm on the sidelines and my gen 1 ASIC hardware is boxed up...but the point is, I don't WANT to stay on the sidelines and I'm hoping to raise enough questions that people start saying, "You know what...I DON'T really feel safe in this current landscape and I DO feel like I should be demanding more information of these companies I'm entrusting with my money."

When that happens and the companies feel a pressure to compete on that basis as well, THEN we'll be getting somewhere and I won't feel like I have to sit on the sidelines, just to avoid getting burned again.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on December 03, 2014, 05:36:00 AM
You are completely wrong.  You don't seem to understand LTCgear at all.    We are not being sold hosting contracts, we are being sold shares in a mining farm.   The shares entitle us to a share of the profits.    This is very different than hosted mining.   Your arguments don't apply.

If that's the case, then why is it that on the product page, the category is "Hosted mining (shares)" and on each individual product, the disclaimer "Hosting and power costs are included for one year. After each year, a power/hosting/maintenance has to be payed to maintain ownership for another year." Don't sell it as hosted mining, if that's not what it is...and don't denominate it in MH to further confuse people about what they're actually buying.

You are twisting things.   Just look at the payouts page, it isn't hosted mining it is shares of a mining operation.   We are paid at a rate per share based on type of share.   The qASIC shares map to 100 KH, but what shares map to has changed in the past and probably will change in the future.   It isn't hosted mining in any sense of that phase.   We don't control the hashing at all here, we only control what shares we have.  We don't have control over what the share are mapped too.

You have no stake or skin in this game.   I know you were seriously hurt in BTCarbs, but that doesn't give you the right to troll.   It is one thing to have concerns and questions it is another to miss-represent what the investment is and then demand answers on that miss-representation.   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on December 03, 2014, 05:53:26 AM
If you want to be involved in mining, you are pretty well forced to pick a cloud provider. Unfortunately NONE of the cloud providers currently available are presenting proof of anything.

Sure, which is why I'm on the sidelines and my gen 1 ASIC hardware is boxed up...but the point is, I don't WANT to stay on the sidelines and I'm hoping to raise enough questions that people start saying, "You know what...I DON'T really feel safe in this current landscape and I DO feel like I should be demanding more information of these companies I'm entrusting with my money."

When that happens and the companies feel a pressure to compete on that basis as well, THEN we'll be getting somewhere and I won't feel like I have to sit on the sidelines, just to avoid getting burned again.

The problem is you are not putting any pressure on LTCgear at all.   You are only throwing confusion into the discussion.   Your questions have nothing to do if LTCgear is legit or not.   You are attacking what the product is and trying to use that to demand answers.   The product is what it is. 

What you have to do if figure out how to manage your risk and how to determine how risky something is for you.   That is your issue not LTCgear's issue.   A pre-order for scrypt mining hardware is very risky, even early this year because while you were waiting for Alpha tech. you could have been buying the cupcakes and mining.   I can't say how risky your investment at BTCarbs was because I don't know if 20+ BTC is a lot for you or not, however you were one of or were the largest investor there and that is in itself risky.    You will never crack the nut of something cloud based being legit or not.   You have to take steps to protect yourself. 

Personally I could afford to go in 4 or 5 times deeper than I have at LTCgear, but I won't because around 25 BTC is all the more I'm willing to risk.   If LTCgear folds it will hurt but it won't slow me down.   This isn't my only investment, but it is one of my larger ones.   
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: FreeJack2k on December 03, 2014, 06:07:31 AM
Of course, only ever risk what you can lose with investments...but my point is, this isn't an investment program, people are buying hashrate. It isn't clear whether it's hosted hashrate (which is the word used repeatedly on the site) or just "shares" in a farm but if it's the latter, then anyone buying shares in a company should want some assurance of its production capacity. The point you keep skirting is that people don't know ANYTHING about the operation, yet they keep throwing money at it.

No, I alone am not going to force any company to start being more transparent. What I'm hoping is that what I'm saying will actually make people question WHY they don't know anything and whether that's really smart of them. People are piling into cloud mining and not asking questions. I am not going to join them. If that means my time in mining is over, then so be it. At least I won't lose any more money on scams.

As for trolling...is this not the appropriate thread to talk about whether or not LTCGear is on the level? You defend it vociferously, but your argument has only been, "so far, so good, so what?" I'd like to see people start getting a little more particular about the information they base their decisions on, without having to lose a bunch of money the way I have.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: csun on December 03, 2014, 06:15:04 AM
You are completely wrong.  You don't seem to understand LTCgear at all.    We are not being sold hosting contracts, we are being sold shares in a mining farm.   The shares entitle us to a share of the profits.    This is very different than hosted mining.   Your arguments don't apply.

If that's the case, then why is it that on the product page, the category is "Hosted mining (shares)" and on each individual product, the disclaimer "Hosting and power costs are included for one year. After each year, a power/hosting/maintenance has to be payed to maintain ownership for another year." Don't sell it as hosted mining, if that's not what it is...and don't denominate it in MH to further confuse people about what they're actually buying.

You are twisting things.   Just look at the payouts page, it isn't hosted mining it is shares of a mining operation.   We are paid at a rate per share based on type of share.   The qASIC shares map to 100 KH, but what shares map to has changed in the past and probably will change in the future.   It isn't hosted mining in any sense of that phase.   We don't control the hashing at all here, we only control what shares we have.  We don't have control over what the share are mapped too.

You have no stake or skin in this game.   I know you were seriously hurt in BTCarbs, but that doesn't give you the right to troll.   It is one thing to have concerns and questions it is another to miss-represent what the investment is and then demand answers on that miss-representation.

I don't really understand what your arguing with FreeJack2k about...

His original argument is that you are purchasing a product and not really an investor. I completely agree.

"Shares" a misnomer for the product you are purchasing: the equivalent of XXXXX kH/s for a contracted period of 1 year before you have to pay some fee to renew.

Share value has never changed as I recall. A Farm$hare has always been 63kH/s. A qAsic share has always been 100kH/s. And I don't remember exactly what 1 Hw$hare was, but I never recall it changing.

Additionally, you get no privileged information or allowed to make any decisions regarding future of the company. Outside of fulfillment of what you have purchased, you have no real stake in the operation. You are not a investor in the mining operation.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on December 03, 2014, 06:23:37 AM
People are buying shares, not hash rate.  We are paid per share, not per MH or anything else.   By claiming something different it is just throwing confusion into the mix.   LTCgear is likely mining more than LTC and isn't limited to that even though we are paid in LTC per share. 

Share vs MH or whatever has nothing to do with LTCgear being legit.   I didn't invest back in May, because I didn't understand the farmshares then which were totally different.  It is confusing but it is also valid.   Talking as if it is pure hosted mining puts more confusion in play like what about dodgecoin issue.    Frankly it doesn't matter what LTCgear mines because we are paid by share. 

This is an appropriate thread to talk about LTCgear being on the level.  However mutating what is offered and than attacking that mutated view is not appropriate and doesn't add value to the discussion. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on December 03, 2014, 06:27:11 AM
You are completely wrong.  You don't seem to understand LTCgear at all.    We are not being sold hosting contracts, we are being sold shares in a mining farm.   The shares entitle us to a share of the profits.    This is very different than hosted mining.   Your arguments don't apply.

If that's the case, then why is it that on the product page, the category is "Hosted mining (shares)" and on each individual product, the disclaimer "Hosting and power costs are included for one year. After each year, a power/hosting/maintenance has to be payed to maintain ownership for another year." Don't sell it as hosted mining, if that's not what it is...and don't denominate it in MH to further confuse people about what they're actually buying.

You are twisting things.   Just look at the payouts page, it isn't hosted mining it is shares of a mining operation.   We are paid at a rate per share based on type of share.   The qASIC shares map to 100 KH, but what shares map to has changed in the past and probably will change in the future.   It isn't hosted mining in any sense of that phase.   We don't control the hashing at all here, we only control what shares we have.  We don't have control over what the share are mapped too.

You have no stake or skin in this game.   I know you were seriously hurt in BTCarbs, but that doesn't give you the right to troll.   It is one thing to have concerns and questions it is another to miss-represent what the investment is and then demand answers on that miss-representation.

I don't really understand what your arguing with FreeJack2k about...

His original argument is that you are purchasing a product and not really an investor. I completely agree.

"Shares" a misnomer for the product you are purchasing: the equivalent of XXXXX kH/s for a contracted period of 1 year before you have to pay some fee to renew.

Share value has never changed as I recall. A Farm$hare has always been 63kH/s. A qAsic share has always been 100kH/s. And I don't remember exactly what 1 Hw$hare was, but I never recall it changing.

Additionally, you get no privileged information or allowed to make any decisions regarding future of the company. Outside of fulfillment of what you have purchased, you have no real stake in the operation. You are not a investor in the mining operation.

Shares are indirect.   We don't know what really goes into our payments.  Sure a lot of it is probably LTC mining, but that may not be all of it.   

FreeJack2k keeps throwing curve balls based on his purest view of hosted mining.   That is where you can login and directly control the mining.   That isn't what we are buying.   We are buying shares in a mining operation that we have no control over.  Two very different things.   It isn't valid to say LTCgear isn't legit because hosted mining isn't transparent.   That isn't the product that was sold to us. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on December 03, 2014, 07:35:28 AM
There have been conversions earlier from one product to another so yes, you got asic shares right now whose speed can change with product generation.

The question i am still asking myself is, where is all that hashrate? Everything else (tech, datacenter, skill) is possible under right circumstances...

He must have sold 600-1000 ghs by now.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: alhague on December 03, 2014, 08:23:13 AM
Share value has never changed as I recall. A Farm$hare has always been 63kH/s. A qAsic share has always been 100kH/s.

share value has changed in two multiplications:
F$ were boosted from 30 to 41 in first multiplication (end of march)

F$ were boosted from 41 to 63 in third multiplication (end of june)
qASICwere  boosted from 65 to 100 in third multiplication (end of june)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on December 03, 2014, 08:52:45 AM
The question i am still asking myself is, where is all that hashrate? Everything else (tech, datacenter, skill) is possible under right circumstances...

He must have sold 600-1000 ghs by now.

If that were the case, how could he come up with 75% of the weekly ltc coin generation for payouts?  It'd be impossible to maintain a ponzi that large.  It is equally disconcerting if that were true and he controls 75% of the ltc nethash (and doge nethash).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on December 03, 2014, 09:00:49 AM
The question i am still asking myself is, where is all that hashrate? Everything else (tech, datacenter, skill) is possible under right circumstances...

He must have sold 600-1000 ghs by now.

If that were the case, how could he come up with 75% of the weekly ltc coin generation for payouts?  It'd be impossible to maintain a ponzi that large.  It is equally disconcerting if that were true and he controls 75% of the ltc nethash (and doge nethash).

Why would that be impossible? Every new share sold pays 5-10 existing shares (depending on price vs roi), not that hard to do looking at all those sales every week plus the cyber crazyness BUT it would be plain stupid with all those infos available about him

The bounty would just be too big to hide, no matter where...

The pieces just dont fit...
- not enough activity and advertisement to be a ponzi although the ref part did the trick there
- payout to wallet, ponzis always control the money flow to come up with some bullshit excuse when they want to bail so ppl keep buying for some time
- not anon anymore and never been anon enough
i am confused... xD diff just dropped and bee sold more than ever within the last days and like i said before, if those shares were already online he must be about 70-80% of the whole network, there are about 400 ghs spread in multipools (clever, middle, multipool & ghash) and probably 700 ghs in shitcoins with 400 ghs in syscoin (wtf) which wouldnt earn money so i rule that out too...from what mining operation does he get all the money?

It has already been proven that he partly paid from order addresses but this can be explained since he is supposed to be mining ltc, saves him the conversion at shitty rates but it does raise another eyebrown...

As usual, all speculation and i would really like this one to be legit, i got a new car to pay ;D
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: megaman84 on December 03, 2014, 09:52:13 AM
The question i am still asking myself is, where is all that hashrate? Everything else (tech, datacenter, skill) is possible under right circumstances...

He must have sold 600-1000 ghs by now.

If that were the case, how could he come up with 75% of the weekly ltc coin generation for payouts?  It'd be impossible to maintain a ponzi that large.  It is equally disconcerting if that were true and he controls 75% of the ltc nethash (and doge nethash).

Why would that be impossible? Every new share sold pays 5-10 existing shares (depending on price vs roi), not that hard to do looking at all those sales every week plus the cyber crazyness BUT it would be plain stupid with all those infos available about him

The bounty would just be too big to hide, no matter where...

The pieces just dont fit...
- not enough activity and advertisement to be a ponzi although the ref part did the trick there
- payout to wallet, ponzis always control the money flow to come up with some bullshit excuse when they want to bail so ppl keep buying for some time
- not anon anymore and never been anon enough
i am confused... xD diff just dropped and bee sold more than ever within the last days and like i said before, if those shares were already online he must be about 70-80% of the whole network, there are about 400 ghs spread in multipools (clever, middle, multipool & ghash) and probably 700 ghs in shitcoins with 400 ghs in syscoin (wtf) which wouldnt earn money so i rule that out too...from what mining operation does he get all the money?

It has already been proven that he partly paid from order addresses but this can be explained since he is supposed to be mining ltc, saves him the conversion at shitty rates but it does raise another eyebrown...

As usual, all speculation and i would really like this one to be legit, i got a new car to pay ;D

I would agree, but there are two aspects missing:

1) I often checked the website and between the discount sales on crazy friday and monday, shares were permanently out of of stock. Does this make sense for a ponzi?

2) Including multiplication, Chris definatley needs to pay dividends for more than 1000GH! There is no way that the numbers of shares are lower than 1000GH, that are circulating!

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on December 03, 2014, 09:52:31 AM
As usual, all speculation and i would really like this one to be legit, i got a new car to pay ;D

Amen.  Chris has been great so far.  I just hope it continues for a couple more months (and then some would be icing!).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: ninh on December 03, 2014, 02:03:44 PM
The question i am still asking myself is, where is all that hashrate? Everything else (tech, datacenter, skill) is possible under right circumstances...

He must have sold 600-1000 ghs by now.

If that were the case, how could he come up with 75% of the weekly ltc coin generation for payouts?  It'd be impossible to maintain a ponzi that large.  It is equally disconcerting if that were true and he controls 75% of the ltc nethash (and doge nethash).

Why would that be impossible? Every new share sold pays 5-10 existing shares (depending on price vs roi), not that hard to do looking at all those sales every week plus the cyber crazyness BUT it would be plain stupid with all those infos available about him

The bounty would just be too big to hide, no matter where...

The pieces just dont fit...
- not enough activity and advertisement to be a ponzi although the ref part did the trick there
- payout to wallet, ponzis always control the money flow to come up with some bullshit excuse when they want to bail so ppl keep buying for some time
- not anon anymore and never been anon enough
i am confused... xD diff just dropped and bee sold more than ever within the last days and like i said before, if those shares were already online he must be about 70-80% of the whole network, there are about 400 ghs spread in multipools (clever, middle, multipool & ghash) and probably 700 ghs in shitcoins with 400 ghs in syscoin (wtf) which wouldnt earn money so i rule that out too...from what mining operation does he get all the money?

It has already been proven that he partly paid from order addresses but this can be explained since he is supposed to be mining ltc, saves him the conversion at shitty rates but it does raise another eyebrown...

As usual, all speculation and i would really like this one to be legit, i got a new car to pay ;D

400 ghs in syscoin might be merged mining I suppose.
700 ghs in shitcoins, maybe, but among those, I estimate there'a around 200-300 Ghs not so shit  (sometimes for clevermining alone, their hashrate is around 300+ GHs, and only 100+ Ghs mining LTC)

I estimate that the network hashrate for all (real) scrypt coins is around 1900-2100 GHs right now.
At the time of this writing, there're some random users out there at coinotron hashing at around 20-40 Ghs, so if Bee has 600 GHs, its is very believable to me.

Btw, as I said many times before, you have no way to estimate Bee's sales:
- You have order numbers but that doesnt mean shit
- You have history of stock level for different packs but that doesnt mean shit (ltcgeartracker.com is very good for that)
- You maintain a private google doc file with hasrates reported from different users but that doesnt mean shit.

And I think Bee does all he can on purpose to obfuscate his sales numbers, so all our estimates could never be correct.


Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on December 03, 2014, 03:31:17 PM

 But nothing about LTCGear is measurable. Nobody knows where the hashrate is deployed physically, in what quantities, which pools it is being used on, there is no independent audit (nor internal, for that matter) to demonstrate available resources and where they're directed...there's nothing but a number on a website that says "I own this much hashrate" and a once a week payment, which may or may not be late. Control over information that is this tight does immediately raise a lot of questions.


Show me a cloud mining service which offers the same thing and same profit and I will show you where is heaven ;).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on December 04, 2014, 07:22:07 AM
51% part splitted off
https://litecointalk.org/index.php?topic=23575.0
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 04, 2014, 05:18:18 PM
The question i am still asking myself is, where is all that hashrate? Everything else (tech, datacenter, skill) is possible under right circumstances...

He must have sold 600-1000 ghs by now.

If that were the case, how could he come up with 75% of the weekly ltc coin generation for payouts?  It'd be impossible to maintain a ponzi that large.  It is equally disconcerting if that were true and he controls 75% of the ltc nethash (and doge nethash).

Why would that be impossible? Every new share sold pays 5-10 existing shares (depending on price vs roi), not that hard to do looking at all those sales every week plus the cyber crazyness BUT it would be plain stupid with all those infos available about him

The bounty would just be too big to hide, no matter where...

The pieces just dont fit...
- not enough activity and advertisement to be a ponzi although the ref part did the trick there
- payout to wallet, ponzis always control the money flow to come up with some bullshit excuse when they want to bail so ppl keep buying for some time
- not anon anymore and never been anon enough
i am confused... xD diff just dropped and bee sold more than ever within the last days and like i said before, if those shares were already online he must be about 70-80% of the whole network, there are about 400 ghs spread in multipools (clever, middle, multipool & ghash) and probably 700 ghs in shitcoins with 400 ghs in syscoin (wtf) which wouldnt earn money so i rule that out too...from what mining operation does he get all the money?

It has already been proven that he partly paid from order addresses but this can be explained since he is supposed to be mining ltc, saves him the conversion at shitty rates but it does raise another eyebrown...

As usual, all speculation and i would really like this one to be legit, i got a new car to pay ;D

The pieces definitely don't add up. That's the oddest thing about LTCGear.

Paying people out from orders doesn't really seem odd, what would you expect him to do with all that BTC otherwise? Especially considering he is paying out hundreds of BTC a week.

I'm beginning to believe that he has really screwed with the inventory numbers and all our basis of data and conjectures are near useless. He may just arbitrarily remove/add stock to confuse us even more.

It's also possible he figured out efficient BTC/LTC miners (Dual purpose ASICs). When he spoke of Gen 2 he mentioned they could natively support BTC conversion, so wtf does that mean? Bolded relevant parts of quotes


Agree. There is no update . As payment received one day early because Chris want to end the sell and new data center but still sell is going on and no news about Data center.  The pic of the data center has been promised while ago still no news on it.

I will most likely do an announcement in next hours if I finish putting everything together. Most likely, all old shares, including original F$, will be convertible to new product to lower the overall power consumption, which became an issue - so basically the quantity restriction is not an issue anymore, at least not for the moment.
Right now I am back in Asia ( I did inform several customers about my whereabouts and I did restrain myself flooding website announcements section) where I finish the financial / logistic details to transfer home the new product batch. I will return back home most likely Saturday or Sunday. Since I will supervise again the payout (will run again BTC payments as test, since new product has this option embedded) I may also move again payout day forward or backward.
So one day after I am back, I will go get pictures for you. Also, the space is not yet fully populated since I expect to receive a lot of new boards.

Cheers,
Chris

Hi guys,

I am really sorry I dont visit this old nest more often, but I am busy running between EU and Asia.

About the 40K0 deal - its negative balance for us now, but will bring more customers next week. Also, some people rushed to reserve them, then they cancelled their orders so they were placed back in inventory.
The deal was created after discussion with some affiliate partners which will cover Black Friday week/day.
The new chip will be presented along with an offer to convert old shares (worst power consumption) to new shares (better power, multi coin but with an extra cost.)
This also explains why there is no request for contract renewal from our side.

Cheers,
Chris

Hi Chris,

40K0 deal, is it a part of new generation chips and doesn't need upgrading to new multi coin shares?

Thanks.

For the moment, as it is, the deal is transparent to the cogs behind, means that it is possible to already use multi-coins (no, not doge, doge is a trap).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: organizer on December 05, 2014, 01:47:43 PM
Personally, I think the inventory stuff is a red herring. Out of curiosity I tinkered with the same e-commerce system and the same BTC payment plugin. The way it works out of the box, in my opinion, would not be sufficient in terms of inventory management and crypto payments. Essentially, the product stays in stock until the final confirmation on the payment is completed and the CRON is run to verify this.

I can see how that system would cause massive inventory control issues as payment times are so variable (not including those who purposefully order something and not pay for days).

My guess is that he's either found or built something custom that works on some sort of formula that he's found to work for him that just sets either high or low (negative) inventory numbers based on his criteria (i.e. 10 orders on hold, go negative until payments are seen or cancelled...something like that)...

But that's all based on about 15 minutes of looking :)

Regarding his business model. If legit, I suspect he's been on BTC for a while now. At least for me that's the only thing that would make sense.

Or, which i'm not sure has ever been brought up, he's selling his chips/products to other private farms. We know that, long before LTCG blew up, that he said he made trips to Asia, etc. and had meetings. I remember some funny story about some scary Chinese dude...

So this, in my head, could be another option as well that he's got his own contacts in crypto (which i think he would have by now) and has also been selling product in the marketplaces none of us will ever see....

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on December 05, 2014, 10:38:47 PM
Personally, I think the inventory stuff is a red herring. Out of curiosity I tinkered with the same e-commerce system and the same BTC payment plugin. The way it works out of the box, in my opinion, would not be sufficient in terms of inventory management and crypto payments. Essentially, the product stays in stock until the final confirmation on the payment is completed and the CRON is run to verify this.

I can see how that system would cause massive inventory control issues as payment times are so variable (not including those who purposefully order something and not pay for days).

My guess is that he's either found or built something custom that works on some sort of formula that he's found to work for him that just sets either high or low (negative) inventory numbers based on his criteria (i.e. 10 orders on hold, go negative until payments are seen or cancelled...something like that)...

But that's all based on about 15 minutes of looking :)

Regarding his business model. If legit, I suspect he's been on BTC for a while now. At least for me that's the only thing that would make sense.

Or, which i'm not sure has ever been brought up, he's selling his chips/products to other private farms. We know that, long before LTCG blew up, that he said he made trips to Asia, etc. and had meetings. I remember some funny story about some scary Chinese dude...

So this, in my head, could be another option as well that he's got his own contacts in crypto (which i think he would have by now) and has also been selling product in the marketplaces none of us will ever see....

He buys his supplies in China -- not the other way around.  I'm fairly sure he is protecting his chip design/farm design as a trade secret (no sharing or showing anyone (e.g. Coke formula, KFC's 11 spices, Bush's baked beans does a set of ads about this legal concept, etc.).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on December 06, 2014, 12:34:20 AM
The question i am still asking myself is, where is all that hashrate? Everything else (tech, datacenter, skill) is possible under right circumstances...

He must have sold 600-1000 ghs by now.

If that were the case, how could he come up with 75% of the weekly ltc coin generation for payouts?  It'd be impossible to maintain a ponzi that large.  It is equally disconcerting if that were true and he controls 75% of the ltc nethash (and doge nethash).

Why would that be impossible? Every new share sold pays 5-10 existing shares (depending on price vs roi), not that hard to do looking at all those sales every week plus the cyber crazyness BUT it would be plain stupid with all those infos available about him

The bounty would just be too big to hide, no matter where...

The pieces just dont fit...
- not enough activity and advertisement to be a ponzi although the ref part did the trick there
- payout to wallet, ponzis always control the money flow to come up with some bullshit excuse when they want to bail so ppl keep buying for some time
- not anon anymore and never been anon enough
i am confused... xD diff just dropped and bee sold more than ever within the last days and like i said before, if those shares were already online he must be about 70-80% of the whole network, there are about 400 ghs spread in multipools (clever, middle, multipool & ghash) and probably 700 ghs in shitcoins with 400 ghs in syscoin (wtf) which wouldnt earn money so i rule that out too...from what mining operation does he get all the money?

It has already been proven that he partly paid from order addresses but this can be explained since he is supposed to be mining ltc, saves him the conversion at shitty rates but it does raise another eyebrown...

As usual, all speculation and i would really like this one to be legit, i got a new car to pay ;D

The pieces definitely don't add up. That's the oddest thing about LTCGear.

Paying people out from orders doesn't really seem odd, what would you expect him to do with all that BTC otherwise? Especially considering he is paying out hundreds of BTC a week.

I'm beginning to believe that he has really screwed with the inventory numbers and all our basis of data and conjectures are near useless. He may just arbitrarily remove/add stock to confuse us even more.

It's also possible he figured out efficient BTC/LTC miners (Dual purpose ASICs). When he spoke of Gen 2 he mentioned they could natively support BTC conversion, so wtf does that mean? Bolded relevant parts of quotes


Agree. There is no update . As payment received one day early because Chris want to end the sell and new data center but still sell is going on and no news about Data center.  The pic of the data center has been promised while ago still no news on it.

I will most likely do an announcement in next hours if I finish putting everything together. Most likely, all old shares, including original F$, will be convertible to new product to lower the overall power consumption, which became an issue - so basically the quantity restriction is not an issue anymore, at least not for the moment.
Right now I am back in Asia ( I did inform several customers about my whereabouts and I did restrain myself flooding website announcements section) where I finish the financial / logistic details to transfer home the new product batch. I will return back home most likely Saturday or Sunday. Since I will supervise again the payout (will run again BTC payments as test, since new product has this option embedded) I may also move again payout day forward or backward.
So one day after I am back, I will go get pictures for you. Also, the space is not yet fully populated since I expect to receive a lot of new boards.

Cheers,
Chris

Hi guys,

I am really sorry I dont visit this old nest more often, but I am busy running between EU and Asia.

About the 40K0 deal - its negative balance for us now, but will bring more customers next week. Also, some people rushed to reserve them, then they cancelled their orders so they were placed back in inventory.
The deal was created after discussion with some affiliate partners which will cover Black Friday week/day.
The new chip will be presented along with an offer to convert old shares (worst power consumption) to new shares (better power, multi coin but with an extra cost.)
This also explains why there is no request for contract renewal from our side.

Cheers,
Chris

Hi Chris,

40K0 deal, is it a part of new generation chips and doesn't need upgrading to new multi coin shares?

Thanks.

For the moment, as it is, the deal is transparent to the cogs behind, means that it is possible to already use multi-coins (no, not doge, doge is a trap).

Don't tell me you're coming back to ltcgear, Sukarti ;)
Yes I prefer your theory. Very interesting indeed.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 06, 2014, 12:50:28 AM

Don't tell me you're coming back to ltcgear, Sukarti ;)
Yes I prefer your theory. Very interesting indeed.

You can't stay away long! I got a few shares  ;)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johny08 on December 06, 2014, 03:35:19 PM
who believe that this time its definitly over?  :(
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: aghanimu on December 06, 2014, 05:06:15 PM
who believe that this time its definitly over?  :(

Wut ? I got paid 14hours ago, nice try
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: csun on December 06, 2014, 05:10:43 PM
who believe that this time its definitly over?  :(

Wut ? I got paid 14hours ago, nice try

Don't bother. The guy is just a troll. His first, and all posts ever been has been 1 liners alluding to how LTCGear is a ponzi.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on December 06, 2014, 05:22:35 PM
He posted his trolling in 3 threads...impressive xD
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kmg on December 06, 2014, 10:23:45 PM
Quote from the 2nd Gen announcement, last sentence:

"The original plan was to get stock ourselves and replace existent shares via payout conversion, marketing events and other similar ways, but there is not enough time left to move on this way."

Maybe I didn't understand correctly, but why is there not enough time if the process starts with getting stock?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 06, 2014, 10:28:01 PM
Quote from the 2nd Gen announcement, last sentence:

"The original plan was to get stock ourselves and replace existent shares via payout conversion, marketing events and other similar ways, but there is not enough time left to move on this way."

Maybe I didn't understand correctly, but why is there not enough time if the process starts with getting stock?

They may not have enough funds to pay for the entire Gen 2 ASIC batch up front. If the batch isn't complete before Chinese New Year then it is delayed considerably (30+ days).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lowky on December 06, 2014, 10:47:24 PM
Quote from the 2nd Gen announcement, last sentence:

"The original plan was to get stock ourselves and replace existent shares via payout conversion, marketing events and other similar ways, but there is not enough time left to move on this way."

Maybe I didn't understand correctly, but why is there not enough time if the process starts with getting stock?

They may not have enough funds to pay for the entire Gen 2 ASIC batch up front. If the batch isn't complete before Chinese New Year then it is delayed considerably (30+ days).
+1 Totally agree
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: karmala on December 07, 2014, 09:28:01 AM
Quote from the 2nd Gen announcement, last sentence:

"The original plan was to get stock ourselves and replace existent shares via payout conversion, marketing events and other similar ways, but there is not enough time left to move on this way."

Maybe I didn't understand correctly, but why is there not enough time if the process starts with getting stock?

They may not have enough funds to pay for the entire Gen 2 ASIC batch up front. If the batch isn't complete before Chinese New Year then it is delayed considerably (30+ days).
+1 Totally agree
that means: if there is not enough raised with the pre-order, there will be no order
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: thorp on December 07, 2014, 03:41:55 PM
They may not have enough funds to pay for the entire Gen 2 ASIC batch up front. If the batch isn't complete before Chinese New Year then it is delayed considerably (30+ days).

A one month schedule, for raising funds, fabricating the ASIC, and manufacturing the miner, seems improbably fast to me.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on December 07, 2014, 04:44:19 PM
They may not have enough funds to pay for the entire Gen 2 ASIC batch up front. If the batch isn't complete before Chinese New Year then it is delayed considerably (30+ days).

A one month schedule, for raising funds, fabricating the ASIC, and manufacturing the miner, seems improbably fast to me.

He already had the chip nearly ready.  My take is that if he didn't place the order THEN, the fab wouldn't continue production and it'd be a 2 month wait.  Chris is someone I can trust to know how to fabricate a chip.  Him and KnC can get it done (unlike the rest and that includes you TERRY).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 11, 2014, 04:38:20 PM
All major "cloud mining providers" are charging maintenance fee, which basically is electricity.

I wander how is it that Chris does not?

I personally can imagine couple of scenarios (excluding perpetum mobile  :D), but would like to know what people are thinking?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on December 11, 2014, 04:51:39 PM
All major "cloud mining providers" are charging maintenance fee, which basically is electricity.

I wander how is it that Chris does not?

I personally can imagine couple of scenarios (excluding perpetum mobile  :D), but would like to know what people are thinking?
Example: What if Chris calculates that he can sell 1MH/s worth of shares for $2.9. But because of maintenance fees he will sell them for $3. Now he can advertise maintenance free hashpower. Just an example.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 11, 2014, 08:14:53 PM
All major "cloud mining providers" are charging maintenance fee, which basically is electricity.

I wander how is it that Chris does not?

I personally can imagine couple of scenarios (excluding perpetum mobile  :D), but would like to know what people are thinking?
Example: What if Chris calculates that he can sell 1MH/s worth of shares for $2.9. But because of maintenance fees he will sell them for $3. Now he can advertise maintenance free hashpower. Just an example.

I understand that numbers can be questioned but:

Presuming 100 MHs needs 600 w PSU (that is the major questionable point)

0.6kW * 24h *$0.1 = $1.44 a day.

Now for 1 year (another questionable point)

$1.44 * 365 days = $512 a year

Regular price per 1K is ~ $276  :o

Again, I do not trying to put legitimacy in question, just what would be an explanation?...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 11, 2014, 08:33:54 PM
All major "cloud mining providers" are charging maintenance fee, which basically is electricity.

I wander how is it that Chris does not?

I personally can imagine couple of scenarios (excluding perpetum mobile  :D), but would like to know what people are thinking?
Example: What if Chris calculates that he can sell 1MH/s worth of shares for $2.9. But because of maintenance fees he will sell them for $3. Now he can advertise maintenance free hashpower. Just an example.

I understand that numbers can be questioned but:

Presuming 100 MHs needs 600 w PSU (that is the major questionable point)

0.6kW * 24h *$0.1 = $1.44 a day.

Now for 1 year (another questionable point)

$1.44 * 365 days = $512 a year

Regular price per 1K is ~ $276  :o

Again, I do not trying to put legitimacy in question, just what would be an explanation?...

The explanation is Zeus/GAW and other manufacturers rape you on maintenance fees. They are mining with consumer hardware not hardware designed from the onset for a datacenter. Concessions can be made per chip for maximum power efficiency with solid hashing output. He should easily outperform the best consumer hardware on a mh/w ratio.

It's also extremely unlikely he is paying .1 per kWh especially at his scale.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 11, 2014, 08:42:35 PM
All major "cloud mining providers" are charging maintenance fee, which basically is electricity.

I wander how is it that Chris does not?

I personally can imagine couple of scenarios (excluding perpetum mobile  :D), but would like to know what people are thinking?
Example: What if Chris calculates that he can sell 1MH/s worth of shares for $2.9. But because of maintenance fees he will sell them for $3. Now he can advertise maintenance free hashpower. Just an example.

I understand that numbers can be questioned but:

Presuming 100 MHs needs 600 w PSU (that is the major questionable point)

0.6kW * 24h *$0.1 = $1.44 a day.

Now for 1 year (another questionable point)

$1.44 * 365 days = $512 a year

Regular price per 1K is ~ $276  :o

Again, I do not trying to put legitimacy in question, just what would be an explanation?...

The explanation is Zeus/GAW and other manufacturers rape you on maintenance fees. They are mining with consumer hardware not hardware designed from the onset for a datacenter. Concessions can be made per chip for maximum power efficiency with solid hashing output. He should easily outperform the best consumer hardware on a mh/w ratio.

It's also extremely unlikely he is paying .1 per kWh especially at his scale.

Presuming he designs equipment not for sale, I agree that power consumption per MH/s should be in doubt, but not price per kW/h.

I am not sure which country can provide you both secure operation and bottom low price for electricity... Globalization, however.

Also my another doubt is if one year projection is really applicable, given difficulty growth. This is a hashrate arms-race.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 11, 2014, 08:59:43 PM
His MH/W is likely the best on the market. Remember all current manufacturers are focused on MAX MH, which will hurt overall energy efficiency in a big way.

Just look back to GPU mining, sure you could squeeze a few more % of hashing out of your GPU but it would cost you a 2x factor in power. The sweet spot was always the best for long term operation, not maxing your KH/s.

You can guarantee he is getting cheap power wherever he is hashing.

If you can get as low as 4.62 cents in the US for industrial power then you can do as well or better abroad.

https://www.rockymountainpower.net/about/rar/ipc.html


There's a few other ways to explain how he is getting cheap power, but I won't get into them here  ;)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 11, 2014, 09:10:43 PM
His MH/W is likely the best on the market. Remember all current manufacturers are focused on MAX MH, which will hurt overall energy efficiency in a big way.

Just look back to GPU mining, sure you could squeeze a few more % of hashing out of your GPU but it would cost you a 2x factor in power. The sweet spot was always the best for long term operation, not maxing your KH/s.

You can guarantee he is getting cheap power wherever he is hashing.

If you can get as low as 4.62 cents in the US for industrial power then you can do as well or better abroad.

https://www.rockymountainpower.net/about/rar/ipc.html


There's a few other ways to explain how he is getting cheap power, but I won't get into them here  ;)

So, potentially his model can be replicated... GAW not in the game, but at least Zeus could do something similar.
This would not be too bad though


His new 2GEN chips - how long will it take for others if they decide to copycat?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 11, 2014, 09:14:04 PM
His MH/W is likely the best on the market. Remember all current manufacturers are focused on MAX MH, which will hurt overall energy efficiency in a big way.

Just look back to GPU mining, sure you could squeeze a few more % of hashing out of your GPU but it would cost you a 2x factor in power. The sweet spot was always the best for long term operation, not maxing your KH/s.

You can guarantee he is getting cheap power wherever he is hashing.

If you can get as low as 4.62 cents in the US for industrial power then you can do as well or better abroad.

https://www.rockymountainpower.net/about/rar/ipc.html


There's a few other ways to explain how he is getting cheap power, but I won't get into them here  ;)

So, potentially his model can be replicated... GAW not in the game, but at least Zeus could do something similar.
This would not be too bad though


His new 2GEN chips - how long will it take for others if they decide to copycat?

Anything can be copied, but Chris started development 6+ months ahead.

GAW can never compete, they just resell.

Only ASIC scrypt producers out there are KNC, Zeus, and Gridseed.

Gridseed has died off I believe? I didn't keep up with them past the little 5 chip/1 fan deals.

KNC is focusing on BTC expansion and not developing scrypt further.

Zeus failed to produce their Volcano, so who knows what their future is.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 11, 2014, 10:25:16 PM
His MH/W is likely the best on the market. Remember all current manufacturers are focused on MAX MH, which will hurt overall energy efficiency in a big way.

Just look back to GPU mining, sure you could squeeze a few more % of hashing out of your GPU but it would cost you a 2x factor in power. The sweet spot was always the best for long term operation, not maxing your KH/s.

You can guarantee he is getting cheap power wherever he is hashing.

If you can get as low as 4.62 cents in the US for industrial power then you can do as well or better abroad.

https://www.rockymountainpower.net/about/rar/ipc.html


There's a few other ways to explain how he is getting cheap power, but I won't get into them here  ;)

So, potentially his model can be replicated... GAW not in the game, but at least Zeus could do something similar.
This would not be too bad though


His new 2GEN chips - how long will it take for others if they decide to copycat?

Anything can be copied, but Chris started development 6+ months ahead.

GAW can never compete, they just resell.

Only ASIC scrypt producers out there are KNC, Zeus, and Gridseed.

Gridseed has died off I believe? I didn't keep up with them past the little 5 chip/1 fan deals.

KNC is focusing on BTC expansion and not developing scrypt further.

Zeus failed to produce their Volcano, so who knows what their future is.

Potentially Bitmain (L1) and Hashra (Astro) - theoretically on the market by the end of December.

However again, oriented towards private consumer, not centralized farming.

Just to complete your list.

So, potentially we have half a year of undisputed leadership... Thanks for info!
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 12, 2014, 01:35:09 AM

Potentially Bitmain (L1) and Hashra (Astro) - theoretically on the market by the end of December.

However again, oriented towards private consumer, not centralized farming.

Just to complete your list.

So, potentially we have half a year of undisputed leadership... Thanks for info!

Until they produce something that's a huge IF. Considering the number of massive failures, no one gets a free pass.

Alcheminer/MAT should be on there as well but their gear is way overpriced. They did at least successfully deliver a few miners from what I understand.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 12, 2014, 03:07:14 AM

Potentially Bitmain (L1) and Hashra (Astro) - theoretically on the market by the end of December.

However again, oriented towards private consumer, not centralized farming.

Just to complete your list.

So, potentially we have half a year of undisputed leadership... Thanks for info!

Until they produce something that's a huge IF. Considering the number of massive failures, no one gets a free pass.

Alcheminer/MAT should be on there as well but their gear is way overpriced. They did at least successfully deliver a few miners from what I understand.

Anyway, all this presuming LTCGear is a "going concern``.

Every time there is a sale like today with 35% affiliate, I feel sick in my stomach, and all suspicions come back :(

Hope that is just paranoia and we will celebrate another year with Chris.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 12, 2014, 03:13:48 AM

Potentially Bitmain (L1) and Hashra (Astro) - theoretically on the market by the end of December.

However again, oriented towards private consumer, not centralized farming.

Just to complete your list.

So, potentially we have half a year of undisputed leadership... Thanks for info!

Until they produce something that's a huge IF. Considering the number of massive failures, no one gets a free pass.

Alcheminer/MAT should be on there as well but their gear is way overpriced. They did at least successfully deliver a few miners from what I understand.

Anyway, all this presuming LTCGear is a "going concern``.

Every time there is a sale like today with 35% affiliate, I feel sick in my stomach, and all suspicions come back :(

Hope that is just paranoia and we will celebrate another year with Chris.

Yea it can be a bit unnerving. It could be the last dance or another round of crazy ROI. It's much easier to stick it out when playing with profit.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on December 12, 2014, 05:46:02 AM
All major "cloud mining providers" are charging maintenance fee, which basically is electricity.

I wander how is it that Chris does not?

I personally can imagine couple of scenarios (excluding perpetum mobile  :D), but would like to know what people are thinking?
Example: What if Chris calculates that he can sell 1MH/s worth of shares for $2.9. But because of maintenance fees he will sell them for $3. Now he can advertise maintenance free hashpower. Just an example.

I understand that numbers can be questioned but:

Presuming 100 MHs needs 600 w PSU (that is the major questionable point)

0.6kW * 24h *$0.1 = $1.44 a day.

Now for 1 year (another questionable point)

$1.44 * 365 days = $512 a year

Regular price per 1K is ~ $276  :o

Again, I do not trying to put legitimacy in question, just what would be an explanation?...

The explanation is Zeus/GAW and other manufacturers rape you on maintenance fees. They are mining with consumer hardware not hardware designed from the onset for a datacenter. Concessions can be made per chip for maximum power efficiency with solid hashing output. He should easily outperform the best consumer hardware on a mh/w ratio.

It's also extremely unlikely he is paying .1 per kWh especially at his scale.

Presuming he designs equipment not for sale, I agree that power consumption per MH/s should be in doubt, but not price per kW/h.

I am not sure which country can provide you both secure operation and bottom low price for electricity... Globalization, however.

Also my another doubt is if one year projection is really applicable, given difficulty growth. This is a hashrate arms-race.

If you want to make a real estimate you would also have to factor in the extra coins from merge mining.   Doge could be offsetting the power costs.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on December 12, 2014, 05:55:55 AM
All major "cloud mining providers" are charging maintenance fee, which basically is electricity.

I wander how is it that Chris does not?

I personally can imagine couple of scenarios (excluding perpetum mobile  :D ), but would like to know what people are thinking?
Example: What if Chris calculates that he can sell 1MH/s worth of shares for $2.9. But because of maintenance fees he will sell them for $3. Now he can advertise maintenance free hashpower. Just an example.

I understand that numbers can be questioned but:

Presuming 100 MHs needs 600 w PSU (that is the major questionable point)

0.6kW * 24h *$0.1 = $1.44 a day.

Now for 1 year (another questionable point)

$1.44 * 365 days = $512 a year

Regular price per 1K is ~ $276  :o

Again, I do not trying to put legitimacy in question, just what would be an explanation?...

The explanation is Zeus/GAW and other manufacturers rape you on maintenance fees. They are mining with consumer hardware not hardware designed from the onset for a datacenter. Concessions can be made per chip for maximum power efficiency with solid hashing output. He should easily outperform the best consumer hardware on a mh/w ratio.

It's also extremely unlikely he is paying .1 per kWh especially at his scale.

Presuming he designs equipment not for sale, I agree that power consumption per MH/s should be in doubt, but not price per kW/h.

I am not sure which country can provide you both secure operation and bottom low price for electricity... Globalization, however.

Also my another doubt is if one year projection is really applicable, given difficulty growth. This is a hashrate arms-race.

If you want to make a real estimate you would also have to factor in the extra coins from merge mining.   Doge could be offsetting the power costs.
good one
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 12, 2014, 04:59:55 PM
...
If you want to make a real estimate you would also have to factor in the extra coins from merge mining.   Doge could be offsetting the power costs.

How would I do this? How does the merge mining work? Should I presume 1 MHs in LTC network = 1 MHs in Dogie?

Also returning back to manufacturers as competitors, I am not sure all listed really develop chips, probably most of them buy them somewhere...

So if LTCGear legit, chip designers / manufacturers are real competitors.

I am not techy person, so if I am saying something stupid, please forgive me.

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on December 12, 2014, 05:20:36 PM
...
If you want to make a real estimate you would also have to factor in the extra coins from merge mining.   Doge could be offsetting the power costs.

How would I do this? How does the merge mining work? Should I presume 1 MHs in LTC network = 1 MHs in Dogie?

Also returning back to manufacturers as competitors, I am not sure all listed really develop chips, probably most of them buy them somewhere...

So if LTCGear legit, chip designers / manufacturers are real competitors.

I am not techy person, so if I am saying something stupid, please forgive me.

litecoinpool estimates value of DOGE mergemine as an 108% of expected LTC (in LTC). (8% bonus).  Likely more in reality, especially with such a large hashrate that Chris controls.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 12, 2014, 05:23:00 PM
...
If you want to make a real estimate you would also have to factor in the extra coins from merge mining.   Doge could be offsetting the power costs.

How would I do this? How does the merge mining work? Should I presume 1 MHs in LTC network = 1 MHs in Dogie?

Also returning back to manufacturers as competitors, I am not sure all listed really develop chips, probably most of them buy them somewhere...

So if LTCGear legit, chip designers / manufacturers are real competitors.

I am not techy person, so if I am saying something stupid, please forgive me.

It's impossible to say where Chris has the hashing pointed and how much but here's some ideas.

http://www.coinwarz.com/calculators/dogecoin-mining-calculator/?h=300000000.00&p=0.00&pc=0.00&pf=0.00&d=15704.91547673&r=31250.00000000&er=0.00000058&btcer=359.12000000&hc=0.00

No idea if that's a good doge calculator or not. Doge has 272 BTC volume in 24 hours just at Cryptsy so converting that much Doge into BTC would not be a problem.

500GH
                            Doge                             BTC                 USD
Weekly    140099422.10699500    81.25766482    $29,181.25    $0.00    $0.00    $29,181.25

300GH
                            Doge                             BTC                 USD
Weekly    84059653.26419670    48.75459889    $17,508.75    $0.00    $0.00    $17,508.75

If you use https://bitcoinwisdom.com/litecoin/calculator and use 8% like ForceFlow mentioned

500GH - $16972.16

300GH - $10183.28
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: johny08 on December 12, 2014, 06:47:07 PM
...guys one time more for the very very slow under you:

-every webpage which is saying they have "cloud" hashing for sale, but having no pictures of the farm or address is a scam and ponzi. No difference here, no hope this times its different... Difficult people here...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 12, 2014, 07:03:23 PM
...guys one time more for the very very slow under you:

-every webpage which is saying they have "cloud" hashing for sale, but having no pictures of the farm or address is a scam and ponzi. No difference here, no hope this times its different... Difficult people here...

Is every cloud provider a ponzi then? None of them prove solvency.

I guess the 1.6TH of mining on LTC is imaginary?


Edit: Durrr! Thanks Geetash :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: geetash on December 13, 2014, 03:36:27 AM
...guys one time more for the very very slow under you:

-every webpage which is saying they have "cloud" hashing for sale, but having no pictures of the farm or address is a scam and ponzi. No difference here, no hope this times its different... Difficult people here...

Is every cloud provider a ponzi then? None of them prove solvency.

I guess the 1.6GH of mining on LTC is imaginary?
*TH
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: ch-apple on December 13, 2014, 06:32:50 AM
...guys one time more for the very very slow under you:

-every webpage which is saying they have "cloud" hashing for sale, but having no pictures of the farm or address is a scam and ponzi. No difference here, no hope this times its different... Difficult people here...

Is every cloud provider a ponzi then? None of them prove solvency.

I guess the 1.6GH of mining on LTC is imaginary?
*TH

i dont know a cloud provider without company address on their page.

sorry, try to get out of your brainwashing and face truth.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 13, 2014, 07:00:34 AM
...guys one time more for the very very slow under you:

-every webpage which is saying they have "cloud" hashing for sale, but having no pictures of the farm or address is a scam and ponzi. No difference here, no hope this times its different... Difficult people here...

Is every cloud provider a ponzi then? None of them prove solvency.

I guess the 1.6GH of mining on LTC is imaginary?
*TH

i dont know a cloud provider without company address on their page.

sorry, try to get out of your brainwashing and face truth.

An address doesn't prove solvency, perhaps you should look the word up.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: csun on December 13, 2014, 07:03:09 AM
...guys one time more for the very very slow under you:

-every webpage which is saying they have "cloud" hashing for sale, but having no pictures of the farm or address is a scam and ponzi. No difference here, no hope this times its different... Difficult people here...

Is every cloud provider a ponzi then? None of them prove solvency.

I guess the 1.6GH of mining on LTC is imaginary?
*TH

i dont know a cloud provider without company address on their page.

sorry, try to get out of your brainwashing and face truth.

Oooh you mean like the whole 4-5 cloud mining providers out there?

I'm also pretty sure a company that beat every company in producing a FPGA proto by 5mo +and actually shipped the only FPGA miners on the market had the expert math skills to determine that 112-125% per week, compounded weekly + bi-quarterly dividend payment increase would be a totally* sustainable model for a ponzi for 5+ months.

*sarcasm for the math impaired.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: thorp on December 15, 2014, 02:12:49 AM
Looks like the end is near.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Forceflow on December 15, 2014, 02:38:49 AM
Looks like the end is near.

That's the best you've got?  ::)  Online trolls these days have the wit of fictional trolls.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: MMM on December 15, 2014, 11:46:34 AM
Looks like the end is near.

I'm afraid not. I wish the end is near for Chris being involved in marketing, share administration, support, sales, payout processing, database- and web-design, affiliate handling and he can focus on crypto currency algorithms and FPGA design ;-)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: lmaonade80 on December 16, 2014, 05:48:25 AM
this is the scariest part for me. its just him.

I think the question people should be asking is: What if it all falls apart? Do I have recourse? If the answer is no, then I'd ponder.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Digiconomist on December 17, 2014, 04:32:22 PM
LTCGear legit? Short answer would be: no.

It can easily be figured out with some common sense and by looking at the numbers. Basically, they're offering a guaranteed and ridiculously high return (classic red flag). At the moment we're talking about an ROI of 100-1000%+. For details, check the full review at my (noncommercial) website: http://digiconomist.net/review-ltcgear
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 17, 2014, 04:39:18 PM
LTCGear legit? Short answer would be: no.

It can easily be figured out with some common sense and by looking at the numbers. Basically, they're offering a guaranteed and ridiculously high return (classic red flag). At the moment we're talking about an ROI of 100-1000%+. For details, check the full review at my (noncommercial) website: http://digiconomist.net/review-ltcgear

1000%+  the initial investment? You aren't much of an economist if you can't do simple math or trending.

ROI is great but it isn't 10x+.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 17, 2014, 04:42:14 PM
LTCGear legit? Short answer would be: no.

It can easily be figured out with some common sense and by looking at the numbers. Basically, they're offering a guaranteed and ridiculously high return (classic red flag). At the moment we're talking about an ROI of 100-1000%+. For details, check the full review at my (noncommercial) website: http://digiconomist.net/review-ltcgear

You gonna love ZeusHash.

Their ROI is negative. Definitely legit.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on December 17, 2014, 05:31:17 PM
Why is it so difficult for people to even remotely make a small step and think that maybe Chris is legit?

Maybe he IS LEGIT and DOES produce his own chips and sells for a small markup because he loves crypto and wants people to be apart of it.

Maybe he does just want to give people RoI. He makes his money, we make out money, it is a win win.

Just because you are used to paying $12 a MH, then somebody comes along and sells it for $3 doesnt mean he is NOT legit.

HOW MUCH EASIER IS IT TO KEEP A PONZI GOING AT $12 a MH THAN 3???

Just my idle curiosity.

I have been with LTCgear since end of October, never missed a payment, never had issues. I think it is legit.
I was with Gaw from day 1 and I am FAR FAR FAR more convinced GAW is a scam than LTCgear.

Other peoples opinions would be welcome.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Digiconomist on December 17, 2014, 06:06:25 PM
LTCGear legit? Short answer would be: no.

It can easily be figured out with some common sense and by looking at the numbers. Basically, they're offering a guaranteed and ridiculously high return (classic red flag). At the moment we're talking about an ROI of 100-1000%+. For details, check the full review at my (noncommercial) website: http://digiconomist.net/review-ltcgear

1000%+  the initial investment? You aren't much of an economist if you can't do simple math or trending.

ROI is great but it isn't 10x+.
Per annum, not per contract. Per contract it's 100-400% (actually that's just in one years' time). But you get your initial investment back in 60 days, hence you need to consider reinvestment rates. Then you get those insane numbers.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 17, 2014, 06:09:41 PM
LTCGear legit? Short answer would be: no.

It can easily be figured out with some common sense and by looking at the numbers. Basically, they're offering a guaranteed and ridiculously high return (classic red flag). At the moment we're talking about an ROI of 100-1000%+. For details, check the full review at my (noncommercial) website: http://digiconomist.net/review-ltcgear

1000%+  the initial investment? You aren't much of an economist if you can't do simple math or trending.

ROI is great but it isn't 10x+.
Per annum, not per contract. Per contract it's 100-400% (actually that's just in one years' time). But you get your initial investment back in 60 days, hence you need to consider reinvestment rates. Then you get those insane numbers.

Given your crazy numbers I would suppose you did not factor any difficulty increase.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Digiconomist on December 17, 2014, 06:10:13 PM
LTCGear legit? Short answer would be: no.

It can easily be figured out with some common sense and by looking at the numbers. Basically, they're offering a guaranteed and ridiculously high return (classic red flag). At the moment we're talking about an ROI of 100-1000%+. For details, check the full review at my (noncommercial) website: http://digiconomist.net/review-ltcgear

You gonna love ZeusHash.

Their ROI is negative. Definitely legit.
I've done several Cloud Mining companies reviews, some seem legit. I haven't found one yet that offers a decent product though. The ones that did didn't put much effort in making their scam sound plausible.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Digiconomist on December 17, 2014, 06:12:33 PM
LTCGear legit? Short answer would be: no.

It can easily be figured out with some common sense and by looking at the numbers. Basically, they're offering a guaranteed and ridiculously high return (classic red flag). At the moment we're talking about an ROI of 100-1000%+. For details, check the full review at my (noncommercial) website: http://digiconomist.net/review-ltcgear

1000%+  the initial investment? You aren't much of an economist if you can't do simple math or trending.

ROI is great but it isn't 10x+.
Per annum, not per contract. Per contract it's 100-400% (actually that's just in one years' time). But you get your initial investment back in 60 days, hence you need to consider reinvestment rates. Then you get those insane numbers.

Given your crazy numbers I would suppose you did not factor any difficulty increase.
Actually I did include a pessimistic scenario of a pure exponential increase in hashrate... I didn't bother with an optimistic scenario after that.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on December 17, 2014, 06:16:20 PM
LTCGear legit? Short answer would be: no.

It can easily be figured out with some common sense and by looking at the numbers. Basically, they're offering a guaranteed and ridiculously high return (classic red flag). At the moment we're talking about an ROI of 100-1000%+. For details, check the full review at my (noncommercial) website: http://digiconomist.net/review-ltcgear

1000%+  the initial investment? You aren't much of an economist if you can't do simple math or trending.

ROI is great but it isn't 10x+.
Per annum, not per contract. Per contract it's 100-400% (actually that's just in one years' time). But you get your initial investment back in 60 days, hence you need to consider reinvestment rates. Then you get those insane numbers.

If you are factoring reinvestment rates which are subjective and strategic did you factor in difficulty adjustments over time, changes in price and rates of coins and then model the difficulty adjustments to anticipated payouts for that period of time to get the real expected payouts which would be the real funds available for reinvestment?  And did you factor in the real multiplication factor that is adjusted for difficulty over those 6 week intervals.

Frankly your model is very simple and a poor representation of ltcgear share performance over 1 year at a 100% reinvestment model.  You missed a lot of obvious variables.  You might want to go back and correct your errors.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Digiconomist on December 17, 2014, 06:17:17 PM
This would be the expected payoff for 3000 shares:

(http://digiconomist.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/ltcgear-adjusted.png)

And if ignore the promised multiplication of shares:

(http://digiconomist.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/ltcgear-unadjusted.png)

In both cases the network hash goes up almost tenfold.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Digiconomist on December 17, 2014, 06:24:53 PM
LTCGear legit? Short answer would be: no.

It can easily be figured out with some common sense and by looking at the numbers. Basically, they're offering a guaranteed and ridiculously high return (classic red flag). At the moment we're talking about an ROI of 100-1000%+. For details, check the full review at my (noncommercial) website: http://digiconomist.net/review-ltcgear

1000%+  the initial investment? You aren't much of an economist if you can't do simple math or trending.

ROI is great but it isn't 10x+.
Per annum, not per contract. Per contract it's 100-400% (actually that's just in one years' time). But you get your initial investment back in 60 days, hence you need to consider reinvestment rates. Then you get those insane numbers.

If you are factoring reinvestment rates which are subjective and strategic did you factor in difficulty adjustments over time, changes in price and rates of coins and then model the difficulty adjustments to anticipated payouts for that period of time to get the real expected payouts which would be the real funds available for reinvestment?  And did you factor in the real multiplication factor that is adjusted for difficulty over those 6 week intervals.

Frankly your model is very simple and a poor representation of ltcgear share performance over 1 year at a 100% reinvestment model.  You missed a lot of obvious variables.  You might want to go back and correct your errors.
You don't need the reinvestment rates to conclude that there's something wrong with these contracts, it's ridiculous enough by itself. Still, you should think about to fully realize the absurdity.

Please feel free to point out any errors, but note that only a limited set of variables determine the final payoff. We can ignore the reinvestment rate, it's not required.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 17, 2014, 06:27:17 PM
LTCGear legit? Short answer would be: no.

It can easily be figured out with some common sense and by looking at the numbers. Basically, they're offering a guaranteed and ridiculously high return (classic red flag). At the moment we're talking about an ROI of 100-1000%+. For details, check the full review at my (noncommercial) website: http://digiconomist.net/review-ltcgear

1000%+  the initial investment? You aren't much of an economist if you can't do simple math or trending.

ROI is great but it isn't 10x+.
Per annum, not per contract. Per contract it's 100-400% (actually that's just in one years' time). But you get your initial investment back in 60 days, hence you need to consider reinvestment rates. Then you get those insane numbers.

Given your crazy numbers I would suppose you did not factor any difficulty increase.
Actually I did include a pessimistic scenario of a pure exponential increase in hashrate... I didn't bother with an optimistic scenario after that.

Your main argument is that if its too good to be true, it is not true.

I would say that although this criterion is necessary, it is not sufficient.

It can set a flag - that is why this thread exists - but it is not sufficient proof in itself.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Digiconomist on December 17, 2014, 06:29:44 PM
LTCGear legit? Short answer would be: no.

It can easily be figured out with some common sense and by looking at the numbers. Basically, they're offering a guaranteed and ridiculously high return (classic red flag). At the moment we're talking about an ROI of 100-1000%+. For details, check the full review at my (noncommercial) website: http://digiconomist.net/review-ltcgear

1000%+  the initial investment? You aren't much of an economist if you can't do simple math or trending.

ROI is great but it isn't 10x+.
Per annum, not per contract. Per contract it's 100-400% (actually that's just in one years' time). But you get your initial investment back in 60 days, hence you need to consider reinvestment rates. Then you get those insane numbers.

Given your crazy numbers I would suppose you did not factor any difficulty increase.
Actually I did include a pessimistic scenario of a pure exponential increase in hashrate... I didn't bother with an optimistic scenario after that.

Your main argument is that if its too good to be true, it is not true.

I would say that although this criterion is necessary, it is not sufficient.

It can set a flag - that is why this thread exists - but it is not sufficient proof in itself.
Okay, it can be true, but it would have to be Warren Buffet handing out his excess cash :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on December 17, 2014, 06:31:27 PM
This would be the expected payoff for 3000 shares:

(http://digiconomist.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/ltcgear-adjusted.png)

And if ignore the promised multiplication of shares:

(http://digiconomist.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/ltcgear-unadjusted.png)

In both cases the network hash goes up almost tenfold.

I can tell from your charts that your formulas are missing the difficulty had on daily payouts and that your reinvestment of previous payouts do not factor into the next weeks daily payout rates.  I can also see that your multiplication is factored in and smoothed out.  You do not show the immediate impact the multiplication has on the next week's payout.  I can also see that you only use a flat rate of increase in difficulty and you are not handling it based on a weighted moving average.

Basically if your payout trendline is not a staggered stepped it is not trying to be accurate and you might as well be shooting down range blindfolded.  Sure you end up getting the bullet down the range instead of some other more dangerous direction but you have no degree of accuracy.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on December 17, 2014, 06:35:56 PM
LTCGear legit? Short answer would be: no.

It can easily be figured out with some common sense and by looking at the numbers. Basically, they're offering a guaranteed and ridiculously high return (classic red flag). At the moment we're talking about an ROI of 100-1000%+. For details, check the full review at my (noncommercial) website: http://digiconomist.net/review-ltcgear

1000%+  the initial investment? You aren't much of an economist if you can't do simple math or trending.

ROI is great but it isn't 10x+.
Per annum, not per contract. Per contract it's 100-400% (actually that's just in one years' time). But you get your initial investment back in 60 days, hence you need to consider reinvestment rates. Then you get those insane numbers.

If you are factoring reinvestment rates which are subjective and strategic did you factor in difficulty adjustments over time, changes in price and rates of coins and then model the difficulty adjustments to anticipated payouts for that period of time to get the real expected payouts which would be the real funds available for reinvestment?  And did you factor in the real multiplication factor that is adjusted for difficulty over those 6 week intervals.

Frankly your model is very simple and a poor representation of ltcgear share performance over 1 year at a 100% reinvestment model.  You missed a lot of obvious variables.  You might want to go back and correct your errors.
You don't need the reinvestment rates to conclude that there's something wrong with these contracts, it's ridiculous enough by itself. Still, you should think about to fully realize the absurdity.

Please feel free to point out any errors, but note that only a limited set of variables determine the final payoff. We can ignore the reinvestment rate, it's not required.

Reinvestment rate has a huge effect on future payouts.  It is not necessary, I lol'd at that one.  I already point out several errors in my first post.  You seems to miss them.  Please reread.

Limited set of variables do determine final payout but you are missing several.  I"m not saying its a terrible model but it is weak.  Sure mine is not perfect, if can be hit by a black swan effect, but if you use too simple a model you might as well erase your axis values because they mean squat

Oh and BTW why are you not including the impact of depreciating cost of shares over time in your model, that is yet another missing variable that has a huge impact on reinvestment per payout.  There is already a real sample of data that you could smooth out to project and factor into formula.  Again lots of gaps
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 17, 2014, 06:37:36 PM

Okay, it can be true, but it would have to be Warren Buffet handing out his excess cash :)

Multiplication coefficient was 1.35 before. Last time it was 1.25, in particular due to "limited capabilities"

Nobody can guarantee multiplication will remain at all, so including it is questionable.

Return for last couple of month varied from 6 to 10 weeks. I would say if you don't get your money back in 12 weeks, you will not get them back ever. Therefore 6 to 10 seems between good to reasonable.

And the last - this is very risky undertaking. It can be 100% legit, but there are so many force-major events that can happen.
And as you know, reward should be proportional to risk.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: artilectinc on December 17, 2014, 06:50:03 PM
Quote
iven the short time period in which the money is earned back, the annualized rate of return would be even higher if the payout is reinvested at similar rates. This would produce a ridiculously high rate of return of more than 3,000 percent on the initial investment per annum. For this reason, the offered product seems too good to be true. Any customer that invests at least $1,000 at LTCGear would potentially be a millionaire is less than two years’ time, while the company itself would only generate a little profit per contract at best. The only possible conclusion would therefore be that this is nothing but an ordinary scam.

It also seems that your conclusion "it is so profitable that it must be a scam" pretty much is the basis for your article and is probably the stupidest statement I've ever heard.  High Profit != Scam, just as Low Profit != Safe.  Your statement was a waste of breathe and should not have been in the article at all.

Based on your justification and my previous experience before LTcgear.  I started with 1 GPU for $250 in August 2012.  I reinvested all my mining profits into more GPUs and built out a 120MHs GPU farm.  I sold the farm for about $60,000 and had a return from sold coins of $120,000 in December 2013. 

That was a x508 growth in my investment per annum.  Was my mining farm a scam?

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Digiconomist on December 17, 2014, 07:22:45 PM
Quote
iven the short time period in which the money is earned back, the annualized rate of return would be even higher if the payout is reinvested at similar rates. This would produce a ridiculously high rate of return of more than 3,000 percent on the initial investment per annum. For this reason, the offered product seems too good to be true. Any customer that invests at least $1,000 at LTCGear would potentially be a millionaire is less than two years’ time, while the company itself would only generate a little profit per contract at best. The only possible conclusion would therefore be that this is nothing but an ordinary scam.

It also seems that your conclusion "it is so profitable that it must be a scam" pretty much is the basis for your article and is probably the stupidest statement I've ever heard.  High Profit != Scam, just as Low Profit != Safe.  Your statement was a waste of breathe and should not have been in the article at all.

Based on your justification and my previous experience before LTcgear.  I started with 1 GPU for $250 in August 2012.  I reinvested all my mining profits into more GPUs and built out a 120MHs GPU farm.  I sold the farm for about $60,000 and had a return from sold coins of $120,000 in December 2013. 

That was a x508 growth in my investment per annum.  Was my mining farm a scam?
Because you got paid it wasn't? Ponzi schemes generally work like this: you get paid until there's not enough new cash. If you bail out in time you're just lucky.

My statement is this: it is not possible to deliver unless you add cash. Either from your own pocket or that of somebody else, in crypto it's generally the latter..
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 17, 2014, 07:32:22 PM

Because you got paid it wasn't? Ponzi schemes generally work like this: you get paid until there's not enough new cash. If you bail out in time you're just lucky.

My statement is this: it is not possible to deliver unless you add cash. Either from your own pocket or that of somebody else, in crypto it's generally the latter..

I have a different scenario to offer for Ponzi: I charge you 12$ per MHs, set high maintenance fee, pay little by little and wait till difficulty kills your payout. I will keep, say, 50% of your initial investment. I do not need to do any mining, and this can go forever.
Looks like your analysis strongly favors this kind of Ponzi, don't you think so?

Anyway, you do not provide any proof. Your statement that "too good to be true - than it is not true", is logical flop, because it is not sufficient.

If you look through this thread, you will see that people here really tried to find proofs - that is something solid and sufficient to support a conclusion, not just speculations.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Digiconomist on December 17, 2014, 07:47:00 PM

Because you got paid it wasn't? Ponzi schemes generally work like this: you get paid until there's not enough new cash. If you bail out in time you're just lucky.

My statement is this: it is not possible to deliver unless you add cash. Either from your own pocket or that of somebody else, in crypto it's generally the latter..

I have a different scenario to offer for Ponzi: I charge you 12$ per MHs, set high maintenance fee and pay you till difficulty kills your payout. I will keep, say, 50% of your initial investment. I do not need to do any mining, and this can go forever.
Looks like your analysis strongly favors this kind of Ponzi, don't you think so?

Anyway, you do not provide any proof. Your statement that "too good to be true - than it is not true", is logical flop, because it is not sufficient.

If you look through this thread, you will see that people here really tried to find proofs - that is something solid and sufficient to support a conclusion, not just speculations.
Proof for a Ponzi is generally in common sense, that's why it is vital to consider the numbers. You'll not get your evidence until it is too late, just look at what happened with Madoff for example. I understand your point, but until the collapse the best "evidence" is finding that the numbers just do not add up for a genuine business.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: csun on December 17, 2014, 07:54:24 PM
Quote
iven the short time period in which the money is earned back, the annualized rate of return would be even higher if the payout is reinvested at similar rates. This would produce a ridiculously high rate of return of more than 3,000 percent on the initial investment per annum. For this reason, the offered product seems too good to be true. Any customer that invests at least $1,000 at LTCGear would potentially be a millionaire is less than two years’ time, while the company itself would only generate a little profit per contract at best. The only possible conclusion would therefore be that this is nothing but an ordinary scam.

It also seems that your conclusion "it is so profitable that it must be a scam" pretty much is the basis for your article and is probably the stupidest statement I've ever heard.  High Profit != Scam, just as Low Profit != Safe.  Your statement was a waste of breathe and should not have been in the article at all.

Based on your justification and my previous experience before LTcgear.  I started with 1 GPU for $250 in August 2012.  I reinvested all my mining profits into more GPUs and built out a 120MHs GPU farm.  I sold the farm for about $60,000 and had a return from sold coins of $120,000 in December 2013. 

That was a x508 growth in my investment per annum.  Was my mining farm a scam?
Because you got paid it wasn't? Ponzi schemes generally work like this: you get paid until there's not enough new cash. If you bail out in time you're just lucky.

My statement is this: it is not possible to deliver unless you add cash. Either from your own pocket or that of somebody else, in crypto it's generally the latter..

Do you have something to backup such a claim?

I see no numbers about estimated costs for building and operating an ASIC farm.

I see no numbers about estimated number of sales.

I only see a claim that you think LTCGear is too profitable and is selling things *too* cheaply. This is because you have 0 experience with hardware design and manufacturing.

I work for a company that creates products that have more components and pcb layers than what would be on an ASIC miner. The final BOM + labor is <$300 for low quantities used for internal R&D. Even KnC has admitted their $10k Titans cost well south of $400 to build.

You're welcome to continue to pay 20x mark up from resellers and price gouging manufacturers though. Or perhaps one of them is giving you a special discount for writing such a long-winded, substanceless article?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 17, 2014, 08:00:39 PM

Proof for a Ponzi is generally in common sense, that's why it is vital to consider the numbers. You'll not get your evidence until it is too late, just look at what happened with Madoff for example. I understand your point, but until the collapse the best "evidence" is finding that the numbers just do not add up for a genuine business.

I understand your point too, there is no proof it is Ponzi, but of course there is no proof of opposite as well (at least as of now).

Main conclusion people came up to - in this thread, by the way - is that payouts in general exceed money collected. I did not see these estimates, but overall people were satisfied. As you understand - if that is true - Ponzi can not operate this way.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: megaman84 on December 17, 2014, 08:26:00 PM
If ltcgear is a ponzi there were many chances to run, especially after black friday and the crazy monday deals and also before! Furthermore, although I don't have evidence but did some personal calc some time ago, weekly turnover is lower than dividends payments, especially since some weeks! Don't also forget the fact that we had times last weeks, where shares were out of stock over days! This doesn't meet typical Ponzi aspects/schemes...

The time for a lucrative run is definitely over!
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 17, 2014, 08:28:50 PM
If ltcgear is a ponzi there were many chances to run, especially after black friday and the crazy monday deals and also before! Furthermore, although I don't have evidence but did some personal calc some time ago, weekly turnover is lower than dividends payments, especially since some weeks! Don't also forget the fact that we had times last weeks, where shares were out of stock over days! This doesn't meet typical Ponzi aspects/schemes...

The time for a lucrative run is definitely over!

Not that I disagree but it's impossible to calculate how many units he's sold. Nor do you know how much he is paying out per week.

Even if it "were a ponzi", he still has BTC left over from Black Friday sales, those units haven't ROI'd and won't still for another week or two.

Once that volume of sales clears and has hit ROI, I think we're in the clear for good.

There are still many other ways things could head south to consider though.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: megaman84 on December 17, 2014, 08:39:09 PM
If ltcgear is a ponzi there were many chances to run, especially after black friday and the crazy monday deals and also before! Furthermore, although I don't have evidence but did some personal calc some time ago, weekly turnover is lower than dividends payments, especially since some weeks! Don't also forget the fact that we had times last weeks, where shares were out of stock over days! This doesn't meet typical Ponzi aspects/schemes...

The time for a lucrative run is definitely over!

Not that I disagree but it's impossible to calculate how many units he's sold. Nor do you know how much he is paying out per week.

Even if it "were a ponzi", he still has BTC left over from Black Friday sales, those units haven't ROI'd and won't still for another week or two.

Once that volume of sales clears and has hit ROI, I think we're in the clear for good.

There are still many other ways things could head south to consider though.

Thanks for your comment, but don't you also believe that if there is a BTC reserve, it would not make sense to spend them for paying current dividends.
I would run, you would run, in fact everyone would run...

I agree with your last comment!



Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 17, 2014, 09:06:40 PM
If ltcgear is a ponzi there were many chances to run, especially after black friday and the crazy monday deals and also before! Furthermore, although I don't have evidence but did some personal calc some time ago, weekly turnover is lower than dividends payments, especially since some weeks! Don't also forget the fact that we had times last weeks, where shares were out of stock over days! This doesn't meet typical Ponzi aspects/schemes...

The time for a lucrative run is definitely over!

Not that I disagree but it's impossible to calculate how many units he's sold. Nor do you know how much he is paying out per week.

Even if it "were a ponzi", he still has BTC left over from Black Friday sales, those units haven't ROI'd and won't still for another week or two.

Once that volume of sales clears and has hit ROI, I think we're in the clear for good.

There are still many other ways things could head south to consider though.

Thanks for your comment, but don't you also believe that if there is a BTC reserve, it would not make sense to spend them for paying current dividends.
I would run, you would run, in fact everyone would run...

I agree with your last comment!

The issue is we have zero idea how much money is really going in/out of LTCGear. There is no proof that there is a reserve or that he's tapped into it.

It's also impossible to know how much people are reinvesting.

People can scream all day how they have a million shares and are owed thousands of BTC but there's no evidence of anything.

I've personally cashed out a long time ago for ROI and then some but, it is very easy to get caught in a trap of perpetual reinvestment chasing a bigger payout.


If it is legit then a "large" portion of the user base here is just blatantly lying/exaggerating about their total shares/payouts, else there is no way everyone is hashing legitimately.

Some transparency is needed, in a big way. Immediately after the current payout debacle is sorted would be preferred.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: FreeJack2k on December 17, 2014, 09:19:32 PM
The only things about LTCGear that make me believe that it's most likely NOT a ponzi scheme are these. Number one, Chris has an established track record as a silicon designer and has produced hardware of his own design, that people have purchased and used. His post history indicates a very in-depth knowledge of hardware design as well as programming. Then there's the fact that every week, people are paid directly to their wallets. There isn't an "account" in which your funds accrue and you are at the operator's mercy, when you withdraw...and how much at a time. The funds are only in his control until payday, at which point everything is paid out. That's not very ponzi-like.

Also, looking through the payments thread and seeing the huge accounts that many people have, it seems highly unlikely that he could bring in the amount in new sales that would be required to cover his outgoing payments, consistently. Now, certainly, the repeated and lengthy delays that people are experiencing with payouts start to raise a lot of questions about solvency...but I think in order to conduct business as he has been, he HAS to have a mining income and I suspect that at the very least, that's how he started. Whether or not it's gotten "fractional" at this point or not is another question.

The article's author also makes an assumption that this hardware has not already been up and running for an extended period of time...whereas the method of paying people out (getting paid for a full week on a purchase made the day before payday) makes it pretty clear that he already has the hardware running and probably has, for quite some time. A good business strategy here, if he had the funds to build the farm out himself, would be to mine until you're in profit and then sell shares on the hardware that is in profit, thereby achieving additional profit that can be used for building out further or developing/producing new hardware. At the very low costs (relative to retail prices on hardware) that he pays for his equipment, which he himself designed, and optimized not for consumer use but for his own farm, I think it's definitely plausible that he could be this competitive when faced with companies that rely on commercial hardware that is less power efficient and more expensive.

However...and it's a BIG however...there is entirely too little transparency, not just here but in ALL cloud mining. People are throwing money at something that they don't even have photographic evidence of. It is a very anonymous operation. So regardless of the track record and the fact that people have been getting paid, there is still enough uncertainty to cause people like me to pause for thought. I also don't like the centralization of cloud mining, generally.

So I don't think you look at profitability and say, "It's a scam because it makes a lot of money." There are Bitcoin farms that make money hand over fist. There are reasons it could be less than legit, but the fact that it's profitable isn't necessarily one of them.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on December 17, 2014, 09:22:43 PM
At the end of the day if you think it is a ponzi and scam then dont invest. If you want to risk it invest some money.

Alot of people knew flipping houses was a bad idea, but some people did it and did VERY well for themselves; some people lost everything.

Determine your risk level then go from there.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Digiconomist on December 18, 2014, 09:54:38 AM
Since I was responding from mobile yesterday, I can write a more complete response today.

First of all, just to clarify, the graph provided shows three lines.

(http://digiconomist.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/ltcgear-adjusted.png)

I did include the promised share multiplication, which I left out in the other image if you want to be very pessimistic.

(http://digiconomist.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/ltcgear-unadjusted.png)

In both cases, I did not make any special adjustments for the coming Litecoin halving.

The graph gives some insight in how LTCGearcalc does its calculations, although the number of days to ROI is a bit lower there.

These numbers have some big implications, because it means the contract is sold at 25% of it value. This business is litterally throwing away money by selling its gold mine at these rates.

But okay, even though that is not a typical business, you can argue that they are being extremely nice to their customers while still making a profit themselves. So what's their profit on this contract?

In terms of power at 1W per MH/s at a cost of just 5 cents per kWh they're going to have $130 in running costs for the first 300 MH/s. This is well below the most efficient miners I could find, and to add a bit I cut the power cost in half. Then there is the actual machine. What would the production cost be for 300 MH/s at the moment? Well, let's say it's around $200.

So that's $330 for 300 MH/s for a one year period. We're not done, because LTCGear promises regular share multiplications. That's where things get tricky, because we do not know how much will be added at what costs (how efficient will they be?).

If they keep up the regular share multiplications, you're going to end up with 4-5 times the original hashrate. But let's say that including the additional costs for keeping up the hashrate the total costs are no more than $450. Then they still double up on this contract over a full year, right? Customers happy, they happy.

Wait, let's look again at what just happened. Their cost for 300 MH/s is at $330? If they would use the equipment themselves then their number of days to break even would be at two weeks. Interesting.

If they are capable of generating mentioned profit on these contracts, then their potential ROI, if they would keep it themselves, would become high enough to generate more than $300 billion in one years' time on a $10,000 investment. Wow, and I was being pessimistic too. :)

The alternative is that the contract is sold at par or less. But that's weird, because it would generate a loss in both cases (because they offer to maintain the hashrate they have to incur additional costs). That's not the way for a business to survive. They might be making their customers rich, but then they will go bankrupt. Then it's not a ponzi scheme, but customers still lose their money in the end so it does not really matter.

I wouldn't exactly consider these numbers substanceless, but okay, that's up to anyone to decide for themselves. Ultimately, there is no evidence for a scam until it would collapse, but then it is too late. Hence I will just end with the following general warning signals on potential scams:

Lastly, never invest more than you can afford to lose, and make sure diversify to reduce risks in generals. Good luck.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kitano on December 18, 2014, 10:04:02 AM
Chris already sold hundreds of 2Gen units. It means that he already sold GH/s in Neoscrypt, Lyra2RE, etc.
There were "issues" with the last two payments.
Everyone can get an idea of this business.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Digiconomist on December 18, 2014, 10:21:46 AM
Tiny additional note: if it is a ponzi scheme, it is not that hard to keep it going even at high rates, because most of the money will probably be reinvested anyway. As an example, consider 5 people who each invest $20 in a scam. The money doubles every 8 weeks, with payouts being weekly. If they all reinvest 90% of what they get paid (right away), no new users enter the game and nobody leaves, then each individual can see still see their "assets" go up five times in about 18 weeks before the actual money can no longer make the weekly payments (just to get an idea of how easy it can be).
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on December 18, 2014, 12:40:37 PM
One thing no one seems to think about, if you had your miner running for a while and you got your ROI and go into profit zone - why sell the miner for the profit of around 6-9 weeks?

I mean you basicly piss away the profit of the rest of the year and if you are already into profit, wouldn't you just enjoy it instead of selling cheap?

I've been renting out my rigs back in the day via betarigs and co but those services actually paid MORE than mining yourself - not less.

Things like that are what really keeps me on guard, it just makes no sense...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 18, 2014, 02:37:09 PM
One thing no one seems to think about, if you had your miner running for a while and you got your ROI and go into profit zone - why sell the miner for the profit of around 6-9 weeks?

I mean you basicly piss away the profit of the rest of the year and if you are already into profit, wouldn't you just enjoy it instead of selling cheap?

I've been renting out my rigs back in the day via betarigs and co but those services actually paid MORE than mining yourself - not less.

Things like that are what really keeps me on guard, it just makes no sense...

I can explain it by the same reason companies do IPOs - to raise capital.

You may need funds now, upfront, to invest in further growth, and do not want to wait for "organic" growth...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on December 18, 2014, 02:46:27 PM
One thing no one seems to think about, if you had your miner running for a while and you got your ROI and go into profit zone - why sell the miner for the profit of around 6-9 weeks?

I mean you basicly piss away the profit of the rest of the year and if you are already into profit, wouldn't you just enjoy it instead of selling cheap?

I've been renting out my rigs back in the day via betarigs and co but those services actually paid MORE than mining yourself - not less.

Things like that are what really keeps me on guard, it just makes no sense...

I can explain it by the same reason companies do IPOs - to raise capital.

You may need funds now, upfront, to invest in further growth, and do not want to wait for "organic" growth...

I know that scenario but you usually do that at half decent rates, in this case he is paying around 3 times what he has raised, probably more - every bank would give him money cheaper if he would proof his current monthly (or weekly) production without a doubt.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 18, 2014, 03:05:38 PM
One thing no one seems to think about, if you had your miner running for a while and you got your ROI and go into profit zone - why sell the miner for the profit of around 6-9 weeks?

I mean you basicly piss away the profit of the rest of the year and if you are already into profit, wouldn't you just enjoy it instead of selling cheap?

I've been renting out my rigs back in the day via betarigs and co but those services actually paid MORE than mining yourself - not less.

Things like that are what really keeps me on guard, it just makes no sense...

I can explain it by the same reason companies do IPOs - to raise capital.

You may need funds now, upfront, to invest in further growth, and do not want to wait for "organic" growth...

I know that scenario but you usually do that at half decent rates, in this case he is paying around 3 times what he has raised, probably more - every bank would give him money cheaper if he would proof his current monthly (or weekly) production without a doubt.

Theoretical explanation here might be he has no access to credit, in required amount at least, so he has to sell equity... It is very hard to judge, especially in this case, where assets actually print money.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on December 18, 2014, 03:32:46 PM
Maybe...it really bugs me  not to know :-\  ;D
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 18, 2014, 03:57:45 PM
One thing no one seems to think about, if you had your miner running for a while and you got your ROI and go into profit zone - why sell the miner for the profit of around 6-9 weeks?

I mean you basicly piss away the profit of the rest of the year and if you are already into profit, wouldn't you just enjoy it instead of selling cheap?

I've been renting out my rigs back in the day via betarigs and co but those services actually paid MORE than mining yourself - not less.

Things like that are what really keeps me on guard, it just makes no sense...

I can explain it by the same reason companies do IPOs - to raise capital.

You may need funds now, upfront, to invest in further growth, and do not want to wait for "organic" growth...

I know that scenario but you usually do that at half decent rates, in this case he is paying around 3 times what he has raised, probably more - every bank would give him money cheaper if he would proof his current monthly (or weekly) production without a doubt.

Theoretical explanation here might be he has no access to credit, in required amount at least, so he has to sell equity... It is very hard to judge, especially in this case, where assets actually print money.

Banks are extremely leery to deal with crypto, so credit may not be easy to come by.

Realize that if he sells his one miner, he may be able to buy 3 new ones. Compound that 100's of times and you see how profitable that can be. Once the chip is nailed down and stable, the miners are dirt cheap.

It isn't easy or simple but is FAR more profitable in the long term.

Also if you are 100% independent, price decreases like we are seeing now can be quite debilitating to your cash flow. If he's selling a % of miners, that consistent money rolling in every week, guaranteed.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kitano on December 18, 2014, 06:20:32 PM
Wow!! DualMods available.
Chris, what is the second algo? We can't choose a Scrypt-N coin.
Maybe you can correct the field of the product description...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: FreeJack2k on December 18, 2014, 06:20:46 PM
If legit, I think it's pretty likely that he's running this operation based on cash flow only, and not credit. So when it comes time to expand into a new building or pay for a fabrication run, you have to raise immediate capital and the easy way to do that is sell shares in the farm. With the assumption being that all of his 1st generation ASIC hardware has been deployed and working for some time now (which would enable him to do the multiplications every six weeks, as well as paying people for a full week no matter which day they bought their shares), his quickest path to "liquidity" is to sell off shares. His recent comments that he is now dumping the remaining shares of his first generation farm in order to prepare for the next generation ASIC leads me to believe this is how he is paying for his fabrication run. I expect that the run itself will FAR eclipse the amount of 2nd gen shares he pre-sells and his farm will be quite a lot larger than the shares that have been purchased...and he'll continue the process again of gradually selling shares as he achieves profitability on the hardware he deployed.

This, of course, is the "legit" scenario. The opposite, for a skeptic, would be "How convenient that he needs money for the 2nd gen ASIC right now, and he's simultaneously having trouble paying on time." I have to admit that seeing a lack of available product throughout the week and then suddenly, an unlimited supply of product for sale on payday raises a lot of questions for me and that's been a trend I've seen for 2-3 weeks.

So it's still 50/50 to me and I need it to be more like 90/10.

Then again, you look at the recent dumping in LTC and BTC and wonder...is this the gigantic impact of a mining company on this scale cashing in to pay for new hardware?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: megaman84 on December 18, 2014, 06:52:14 PM
If legit, I think it's pretty likely that he's running this operation based on cash flow only, and not credit. So when it comes time to expand into a new building or pay for a fabrication run, you have to raise immediate capital and the easy way to do that is sell shares in the farm. With the assumption being that all of his 1st generation ASIC hardware has been deployed and working for some time now (which would enable him to do the multiplications every six weeks, as well as paying people for a full week no matter which day they bought their shares), his quickest path to "liquidity" is to sell off shares. His recent comments that he is now dumping the remaining shares of his first generation farm in order to prepare for the next generation ASIC leads me to believe this is how he is paying for his fabrication run. I expect that the run itself will FAR eclipse the amount of 2nd gen shares he pre-sells and his farm will be quite a lot larger than the shares that have been purchased...and he'll continue the process again of gradually selling shares as he achieves profitability on the hardware he deployed.

This, of course, is the "legit" scenario. The opposite, for a skeptic, would be "How convenient that he needs money for the 2nd gen ASIC right now, and he's simultaneously having trouble paying on time." I have to admit that seeing a lack of available product throughout the week and then suddenly, an unlimited supply of product for sale on payday raises a lot of questions for me and that's been a trend I've seen for 2-3 weeks.

So it's still 50/50 to me and I need it to be more like 90/10.

Then again, you look at the recent dumping in LTC and BTC and wonder...is this the gigantic impact of a mining company on this scale cashing in to pay for new hardware?

I agree but there is no need to dump BTC and LTC as he is probably able to pay his suppliers with BTC or LTC!?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 18, 2014, 07:23:22 PM
If legit, I think it's pretty likely that he's running this operation based on cash flow only, and not credit. So when it comes time to expand into a new building or pay for a fabrication run, you have to raise immediate capital and the easy way to do that is sell shares in the farm. With the assumption being that all of his 1st generation ASIC hardware has been deployed and working for some time now (which would enable him to do the multiplications every six weeks, as well as paying people for a full week no matter which day they bought their shares), his quickest path to "liquidity" is to sell off shares. His recent comments that he is now dumping the remaining shares of his first generation farm in order to prepare for the next generation ASIC leads me to believe this is how he is paying for his fabrication run. I expect that the run itself will FAR eclipse the amount of 2nd gen shares he pre-sells and his farm will be quite a lot larger than the shares that have been purchased...and he'll continue the process again of gradually selling shares as he achieves profitability on the hardware he deployed.

This, of course, is the "legit" scenario. The opposite, for a skeptic, would be "How convenient that he needs money for the 2nd gen ASIC right now, and he's simultaneously having trouble paying on time." I have to admit that seeing a lack of available product throughout the week and then suddenly, an unlimited supply of product for sale on payday raises a lot of questions for me and that's been a trend I've seen for 2-3 weeks.

So it's still 50/50 to me and I need it to be more like 90/10.

Then again, you look at the recent dumping in LTC and BTC and wonder...is this the gigantic impact of a mining company on this scale cashing in to pay for new hardware?

I agree but there is no need to dump BTC and LTC as he is probably able to pay his suppliers with BTC or LTC!?

Then his suppliers dump LTC and BTC... Anyway coins find their way to exchanges.  Again, if all this is legit.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: thorp on December 18, 2014, 08:18:27 PM
If legit, I think it's pretty likely that he's running this operation based on cash flow only, and not credit. So when it comes time to expand into a new building or pay for a fabrication run, you have to raise immediate capital and the easy way to do that is sell shares in the farm. With the assumption being that all of his 1st generation ASIC hardware has been deployed and working for some time now (which would enable him to do the multiplications every six weeks, as well as paying people for a full week no matter which day they bought their shares), his quickest path to "liquidity" is to sell off shares. His recent comments that he is now dumping the remaining shares of his first generation farm in order to prepare for the next generation ASIC leads me to believe this is how he is paying for his fabrication run.

The shares program is just a loan at any rate. Chris gets money today, for a promise to pay it back later, with interest. And Chris is paying extraordinarily high interest on the loan.

He should be expected to eventually default on his extraordinarily high interest loan. By, say, tomorrow, from the look of things.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: freakingcat on December 20, 2014, 06:04:53 AM
I haven't received the payout for last week yet. Waited until the lockdown period was over, emailed Chris two times but no reply nor any payment.
For me this looks more and more like a Ponzi Scheme breaking down. I would not recommend anyone to put their money into it right now.

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on December 20, 2014, 11:53:40 AM
I haven't received the payout for last week yet. Waited until the lockdown period was over, emailed Chris two times but no reply nor any payment.
For me this looks more and more like a Ponzi Scheme breaking down. I would not recommend anyone to put their money into it right now.
This does not look like ponzi breaking down. If it is, Chris is doing a horrible job with it. Why would he pay out so much if he is ready to run? Think about it for a while. The best time to run would have been before payouts after black friday and cyber monday. Next possible date would be before first payday after multiplication. And after that before 2nd gen asics "arrive". AND always, before running, make a big sale and sell as much as possible!

For me this looks like things have grown way too much, way too fast and Chris is overwhelmed by it all. This thing might brake down for technical reasons. There is a lot of suspicious things in LTCGear that makes people easily say its a ponzi. But when you think about it for a while there is also things that points opposite direction.

Really hard to say.. i just cant believe anymore that this is a ponzi.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dykask on December 20, 2014, 12:17:34 PM
I haven't received the payout for last week yet. Waited until the lockdown period was over, emailed Chris two times but no reply nor any payment.
For me this looks more and more like a Ponzi Scheme breaking down. I would not recommend anyone to put their money into it right now.

After fixing your account you get the old payout with the next payout in the next payout cycle. 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: freakingcat on December 20, 2014, 01:52:57 PM
I haven't received the payout for last week yet. Waited until the lockdown period was over, emailed Chris two times but no reply nor any payment.
For me this looks more and more like a Ponzi Scheme breaking down. I would not recommend anyone to put their money into it right now.

After fixing your account you get the old payout with the next payout in the next payout cycle.

I hope you are right. Anxiously waiting if Chris will send last weeks and this weeks payout. Should be anytime now.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: freakingcat on December 21, 2014, 04:12:32 AM
Did anyone get paid? Still, until now no payment for last week, nor this week.....
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 21, 2014, 04:24:54 AM
Did anyone get paid? Still, until now no payment for last week, nor this week.....

Payments were delayed. It's on the payment page. They start in about 95 minutes.

Payments will be batched and executed around 06:00 UTC. Payments for accounts missing address validation will be postponed.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: LuisCorinthiano on December 21, 2014, 06:00:11 PM
Payments are coming into people's accounts today
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Mr. Jinx on December 22, 2014, 04:53:33 PM
Did anyone get paid? Still, until now no payment for last week, nor this week.....
Yep, I've been with LTCgear from the beginning and have been paid *everytime*.
Sometimes it comes a few days later. No panic.

If you can't stand the heat, get the hell out of this kitchen!
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kaladinStrom on December 22, 2014, 05:35:09 PM
Did anyone get paid? Still, until now no payment for last week, nor this week.....
Yep, I've been with LTCgear from the beginning and have been paid *everytime*.
Sometimes it comes a few days later. No panic.

If you can't stand the heat, get the hell out of this kitchen!

This quote basically says "Things have been great for me, if you had issues, shut up and leave" which doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 22, 2014, 05:46:29 PM
Did anyone get paid? Still, until now no payment for last week, nor this week.....
Yep, I've been with LTCgear from the beginning and have been paid *everytime*.
Sometimes it comes a few days later. No panic.

If you can't stand the heat, get the hell out of this kitchen!

This quote basically says "Things have been great for me, if you had issues, shut up and leave" which doesn't make any sense.

No. What he is saying is "You should not invest more than you can afford to loose". I.e. loss of invested amount should not be unbearable blow for you.

In more elaborate way, if you visit financial adviser, she will produce something called "risk profile" for you. Pretty much the same idea - how sensitive you are for potential losses, what is your risk tolerance. Rewards are proportional to risks. As well as losses.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kaladinStrom on December 22, 2014, 06:11:25 PM
Did anyone get paid? Still, until now no payment for last week, nor this week.....
Yep, I've been with LTCgear from the beginning and have been paid *everytime*.
Sometimes it comes a few days later. No panic.

If you can't stand the heat, get the hell out of this kitchen!

This quote basically says "Things have been great for me, if you had issues, shut up and leave" which doesn't make any sense.

No. What he is saying is "You should not invest more than you can afford to loose". I.e. loss of invested amount should not be unbearable blow for you.

In more elaborate way, if you visit financial adviser, she will produce something called "risk profile" for you. Pretty much the same idea - how sensitive you are for potential losses, what is your risk tolerance. Rewards are proportional to risks. As well as losses.

I have also received all my payments on time, for ~6 months, and am actually grateful to see some payment issues, this operation was going far too smoothly for comfort.

There are plenty of people saying not to invest more than you can lose, but not that comment was not. It really doesn't matter, not worth arguing over. I will accept that what you say is the spirit of their comment.

What I really came here to ask was if anyone has adequately explained the mining power being sold. I know 4 people with over > 100k shares, which, at 100kh/s each is 40 GH/s is 2.7% of the mining power on litecoin. https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools Maybe these are bigger fish than I thought, but from what I see on the forum, it's not uncommon to see a number of shares this high. If there are 10 (probably a lot more) other people in this range, at minimum those people control 14% 9% of all litecoin mining, not to mention all the people like me (~70k shares) and all the small fish which only have a few thousand shares.

LTCgear hasn't displayed symptoms of a Ponzi, as far as I can tell (I'm no expert), but I can't possibly see how this is really litecoin mining. Maybe he is using the funds to fund a giant cocaine cartel or something?

Edit: fixed a couple errors where I inserted the wrong numbers from my calculations.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: dEBRUYNE on December 22, 2014, 06:16:33 PM
Did anyone get paid? Still, until now no payment for last week, nor this week.....
Yep, I've been with LTCgear from the beginning and have been paid *everytime*.
Sometimes it comes a few days later. No panic.

If you can't stand the heat, get the hell out of this kitchen!

This quote basically says "Things have been great for me, if you had issues, shut up and leave" which doesn't make any sense.

No. What he is saying is "You should not invest more than you can afford to loose". I.e. loss of invested amount should not be unbearable blow for you.

In more elaborate way, if you visit financial adviser, she will produce something called "risk profile" for you. Pretty much the same idea - how sensitive you are for potential losses, what is your risk tolerance. Rewards are proportional to risks. As well as losses.

I have also received all my payments on time, for ~6 months, and am actually grateful to see some payment issues, this operation was going far too smoothly for comfort.

There are plenty of people saying not to invest more than you can lose, but not that comment was not. It really doesn't matter, not worth arguing over. I will accept that what you say is the spirit of their comment.

What I really came here to ask was if anyone has adequately explained the mining power being sold. I know 4 people with over > 100k shares, which, at 100kh/s each is 30 GH/s is 2.7% of the mining power on litecoin. https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools Maybe these are bigger fish than I thought, but from what I see on the forum, it's not uncommon to see a number of shares this high. If there are 10 (probably a lot more) other people in this range, at minimum those people control 14% of all litecoin mining, not to mention all the people like me (~70k shares) and all the small fish which only have a few thousand shares.

LTCgear hasn't displayed symptoms of a Ponzi, as far as I can tell (I'm no expert), but I can't possibly see how this is really litecoin mining. Maybe he is using the funds to fund a giant cocaine cartel or something?

In the other topic there was a guy with > 1 million shares.. I think there are a lot more than 4 people with over 100k shares. I also have my doubts about the total hashpower, some things don't add up..
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kaladinStrom on December 22, 2014, 06:19:09 PM
Did anyone get paid? Still, until now no payment for last week, nor this week.....
Yep, I've been with LTCgear from the beginning and have been paid *everytime*.
Sometimes it comes a few days later. No panic.

If you can't stand the heat, get the hell out of this kitchen!

This quote basically says "Things have been great for me, if you had issues, shut up and leave" which doesn't make any sense.

No. What he is saying is "You should not invest more than you can afford to loose". I.e. loss of invested amount should not be unbearable blow for you.

In more elaborate way, if you visit financial adviser, she will produce something called "risk profile" for you. Pretty much the same idea - how sensitive you are for potential losses, what is your risk tolerance. Rewards are proportional to risks. As well as losses.

I have also received all my payments on time, for ~6 months, and am actually grateful to see some payment issues, this operation was going far too smoothly for comfort.

There are plenty of people saying not to invest more than you can lose, but not that comment was not. It really doesn't matter, not worth arguing over. I will accept that what you say is the spirit of their comment.

What I really came here to ask was if anyone has adequately explained the mining power being sold. I know 4 people with over > 100k shares, which, at 100kh/s each is 40 GH/s is 2.7% of the mining power on litecoin. https://www.litecoinpool.org/pools Maybe these are bigger fish than I thought, but from what I see on the forum, it's not uncommon to see a number of shares this high. If there are 10 (probably a lot more) other people in this range, at minimum those people control 14% 9% of all litecoin mining, not to mention all the people like me (~70k shares) and all the small fish which only have a few thousand shares.

LTCgear hasn't displayed symptoms of a Ponzi, as far as I can tell (I'm no expert), but I can't possibly see how this is really litecoin mining. Maybe he is using the funds to fund a giant cocaine cartel or something?

In the other topic there was a guy with > 1 million shares.. I think there are a lot more than 4 people with over 100k shares. I also have my doubts about the total hashpower, some things don't add up..
Sorry you got the quote before my ninja edit, I typoed 3 insted of 4 in the GH/s.

Yea, I think there are probably a ton, and one of the people I know is more likely in the 200k shares I'm going off of old data for them.

Ninja Edit 2: it's actually 9% for those 14 people. (I haven't had my coffee yet. sorry guys!)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on December 22, 2014, 06:32:07 PM
It could also be he has a sizeable BTC mining operation also, and just sells the LTC scrypt power? Or he could be mining other coins and not all focused on LTC.

Speculation of course, but if I were him I would spread out my power and not just focus on 1 coin
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kaladinStrom on December 22, 2014, 06:33:45 PM
It could also be he has a sizeable BTC mining operation also, and just sells the LTC scrypt power? Or he could be mining other coins and not all focused on LTC.

Speculation of course, but if I were him I would spread out my power and not just focus on 1 coin

I suspect something like that as well, but it would be nice to get some clarity about this. With returns like this I don't care if were mining Karma coin, I would just like to know what we are really doing, instead of the pretense of mining litecoin.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 22, 2014, 06:40:16 PM
It could also be he has a sizeable BTC mining operation also, and just sells the LTC scrypt power? Or he could be mining other coins and not all focused on LTC.

Speculation of course, but if I were him I would spread out my power and not just focus on 1 coin

I suspect something like that as well, but it would be nice to get some clarity about this. With returns like this I don't care if were mining Karma coin, I would just like to know what we are really doing, instead of the pretense of mining litecoin.

There were discussions of hashing capacity LTCGear commands in this thread as well. If I am not mistaken people came up to estimate of ~1/3 of all capacity of Scrypt net...

Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kaladinStrom on December 22, 2014, 06:42:00 PM
It could also be he has a sizeable BTC mining operation also, and just sells the LTC scrypt power? Or he could be mining other coins and not all focused on LTC.

Speculation of course, but if I were him I would spread out my power and not just focus on 1 coin

I suspect something like that as well, but it would be nice to get some clarity about this. With returns like this I don't care if were mining Karma coin, I would just like to know what we are really doing, instead of the pretense of mining litecoin.

There were discussions of hashing capacity LTCGear commands in this thread as well. If I am not mistaken people came up to estimate of ~1/3 of all capacity of Scrypt net...
Cool thanks, but I assume that was months ago before all the black friday sales and farm share dumping?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kaladinStrom on December 22, 2014, 06:55:10 PM
It could also be he has a sizeable BTC mining operation also, and just sells the LTC scrypt power? Or he could be mining other coins and not all focused on LTC.

Speculation of course, but if I were him I would spread out my power and not just focus on 1 coin

I suspect something like that as well, but it would be nice to get some clarity about this. With returns like this I don't care if were mining Karma coin, I would just like to know what we are really doing, instead of the pretense of mining litecoin.

There were discussions of hashing capacity LTCGear commands in this thread as well. If I am not mistaken people came up to estimate of ~1/3 of all capacity of Scrypt net...



After thinking about this more, I went on ltcgeartracker.com (maybe it's highly inaccurate?) and between on saturday, DEC 20,  ltcgear sold either 372 or 272 3k qasic share products, assuming it's 272, thats 81 GH/s from the sales in one day. Granted, that is the biggest sales day on there, but that still means he sold over 5% of the capacity in one day.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 22, 2014, 06:58:28 PM
Again, if I understand all correctly - Chris is not selling something that does not exist (presuming this is legit operations).

The capacity is on-line already for a while before Chris sells it. So BF is not necessarily when you should see hash rate jump
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on December 22, 2014, 07:03:24 PM
Agreed, on litecoin wisdom their are quite a few difficulty jumps where you see about ~100 ghs jumps. Very possible Chris brought some power online, let it mine for a week, then sold it.

Matches the timeline but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kaladinStrom on December 22, 2014, 07:04:09 PM
Again, if I understand all correctly - Chris is not selling something that does not exist (presuming this is legit operations).

The capacity is on-line already for a while before Chris sells it. So BF is not necessarily when you should see hash rate jump

I wasn't thinking that I would see a difficulty jump. The main point was that 5% was sold in one day, and this has been going on for months. Surely we would have passed 100% a long time ago...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 22, 2014, 07:37:28 PM
It could also be he has a sizeable BTC mining operation also, and just sells the LTC scrypt power? Or he could be mining other coins and not all focused on LTC.

Speculation of course, but if I were him I would spread out my power and not just focus on 1 coin

I suspect something like that as well, but it would be nice to get some clarity about this. With returns like this I don't care if were mining Karma coin, I would just like to know what we are really doing, instead of the pretense of mining litecoin.

There were discussions of hashing capacity LTCGear commands in this thread as well. If I am not mistaken people came up to estimate of ~1/3 of all capacity of Scrypt net...



After thinking about this more, I went on ltcgeartracker.com (maybe it's highly inaccurate?) and between on saturday, DEC 20,  ltcgear sold either 372 or 272 3k qasic share products, assuming it's 272, thats 81 GH/s from the sales in one day. Granted, that is the biggest sales day on there, but that still means he sold over 5% of the capacity in one day.

Share tracking is near impossible. Chris purposefully manipulates stock so that you can't track quantity sold. He has admitted to that some time ago to avoid people tracking his total hashing.

The only possible way to track shares would be to get people to voluntarily submit to a spreadsheet (Like Sy's) and keep it updated week to week with a trustworthy source.

All other methods are pure speculation and prone to massive errors.

Based on a number of large share holders that I've spoken with Chris/Bee appears to be a solid 50% of all scrypt hashing.


It's definitely an odd scenario but possible considering that he is the only ASIC manufacturer still active in the Scrypt space with any volume.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on December 22, 2014, 07:38:29 PM
He might be mining other altcoins as well, even bitcoin, who knows? It's just easier to pay in litecoin/bitcoin instead of acting like a multipool. This would explain the big BTC-e wallets where all the payments are coming from. I have said this before and i say it again: if this is a scam, Chris is either super smart or super stupid. If he is running with our money he will most likely do it after christmas. If we get through this year with all payments (or at least 95+% of payments done) we are in clear waters. Next good spot to run is when 2nd gen should start mining.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on December 22, 2014, 07:46:29 PM
He might be mining other altcoins as well, even bitcoin, who knows? It's just easier to pay in litecoin/bitcoin instead of acting like a multipool. This would explain the big BTC-e wallets where all the payments are coming from. I have said this before and i say it again: if this is a scam, Chris is either super smart or super stupid. If he is running with our money he will most likely do it after christmas. If we get through this year with all payments (or at least 95+% of payments done) we are in clear waters. Next good spot to run is when 2nd gen should start mining.

stop giving him ideas, with all the bitching people do I am sure it has crossed his mind :P
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 22, 2014, 07:47:36 PM
He might be mining other altcoins as well, even bitcoin, who knows? It's just easier to pay in litecoin/bitcoin instead of acting like a multipool. This would explain the big BTC-e wallets where all the payments are coming from. I have said this before and i say it again: if this is a scam, Chris is either super smart or super stupid. If he is running with our money he will most likely do it after christmas. If we get through this year with all payments (or at least 95+% of payments done) we are in clear waters. Next good spot to run is when 2nd gen should start mining.

He is not mining bitcoin, he would have stated so if he is. His ASIC is for scrypt and his future Gen 2 is for all the new "alternate" memory hard algorithms.

For Scrypt there is basically 1500GH LTC and that's it. ALL the rest of scrypt is only around 7-800GH including multipools.

He runs all the coins through BTC-E so they become untraceable. It's also one of the largest available BTC/LTC exchanges, as many clients prefer BTC to LTC given the price trending of the past few months.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kaladinStrom on December 22, 2014, 07:54:13 PM
He might be mining other altcoins as well, even bitcoin, who knows? It's just easier to pay in litecoin/bitcoin instead of acting like a multipool. This would explain the big BTC-e wallets where all the payments are coming from. I have said this before and i say it again: if this is a scam, Chris is either super smart or super stupid. If he is running with our money he will most likely do it after christmas. If we get through this year with all payments (or at least 95+% of payments done) we are in clear waters. Next good spot to run is when 2nd gen should start mining.

He is paying people right now, if he were going to run, I think he would have run after black friday. Once he can't afford to pay some of the people, it wouldn't make sense to pay any of us. The trust would be broken and sales would decline sharply. Anything he paid out after that would practically be a loss. The oddity of the way he is paying people right now actually makes me think it's not a scheme, but a hack or a system failure that is causing major problems. My whole point is that I really don't think there is much litecoin mining going on, and I would prefer not to be linked to the price and difficulty of litecoin. I guess that's why I am excited about the next gen stuff (Assuming we make it that far).

As I have said on here before, chris is neglecting the website way too much, especially since it's the linchpin of the whole operation. He needs to postpone payments until he figures out what is going on with his system and puts a ton of time into insuring this isn't going to happen again. Then resume payments (with back pay).

Each week of having a screwed up system is going to compound and make this problem worse. And, everyday he doesn't tell people what's happening is another day in which people will start to think this is a scam. Maybe that's what he wants. Get people to resell their shares and hopefully he will have less customers to deal with.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: cryptocurrencyguy on December 22, 2014, 08:06:42 PM
He might be mining other altcoins as well, even bitcoin, who knows? It's just easier to pay in litecoin/bitcoin instead of acting like a multipool. This would explain the big BTC-e wallets where all the payments are coming from. I have said this before and i say it again: if this is a scam, Chris is either super smart or super stupid. If he is running with our money he will most likely do it after christmas. If we get through this year with all payments (or at least 95+% of payments done) we are in clear waters. Next good spot to run is when 2nd gen should start mining.

He is paying people right now, if he were going to run, I think he would have run after black friday.
Unless he thinks most of the payments are reinvested because multiplication and 2nd gen presale continuing. That would make payday after christmas the best day to run.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 22, 2014, 08:10:56 PM
He might be mining other altcoins as well, even bitcoin, who knows? It's just easier to pay in litecoin/bitcoin instead of acting like a multipool. This would explain the big BTC-e wallets where all the payments are coming from. I have said this before and i say it again: if this is a scam, Chris is either super smart or super stupid. If he is running with our money he will most likely do it after christmas. If we get through this year with all payments (or at least 95+% of payments done) we are in clear waters. Next good spot to run is when 2nd gen should start mining.

He is paying people right now, if he were going to run, I think he would have run after black friday.
Unless he thinks most of the payments are reinvested because multiplication and 2nd gen presale continuing. That would make payday after christmas the best day to run.

The theory of best day to run has been bouncing around months. You have no evidence of anything.

You don't have a clue how many paid orders he takes a week.

You don't have a clue how much he pays out a week.

You don't have a clue what % is reinvested every week.

It is impossible for you to guess best time to run as it would be "in theory" once he hits a %% threshold of money coming in vs going out.

You know none of the variables so you are about as accurate as a monkey throwing shit at a dartboard, or a weather man.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kaladinStrom on December 22, 2014, 08:20:52 PM
He might be mining other altcoins as well, even bitcoin, who knows? It's just easier to pay in litecoin/bitcoin instead of acting like a multipool. This would explain the big BTC-e wallets where all the payments are coming from. I have said this before and i say it again: if this is a scam, Chris is either super smart or super stupid. If he is running with our money he will most likely do it after christmas. If we get through this year with all payments (or at least 95+% of payments done) we are in clear waters. Next good spot to run is when 2nd gen should start mining.

He is paying people right now, if he were going to run, I think he would have run after black friday.
Unless he thinks most of the payments are reinvested because multiplication and 2nd gen presale continuing. That would make payday after christmas the best day to run.

The theory of best day to run has been bouncing around months. You have no evidence of anything.

You don't have a clue how many paid orders he takes a week.

You don't have a clue how much he pays out a week.

You don't have a clue what % is reinvested every week.

It is impossible for you to guess best time to run as it would be "in theory" once he hits a %% threshold of money coming in vs going out.

You know none of the variables so you are about as accurate as a monkey throwing shit at a dartboard, or a weather man.

There is a lot you can infer under the assumption that it were a scheme (I am not saying it is, I am leaning the other way), including when he puts what coupons up, how late he is on payments, product price reductions, number of people saying they aren't getting payments etc. The 49% coupon going up just as he was having massive payment issues is incredibly suspicious, as one example.

It's true we are making educated guesses at best, but they aren't shots in the dark either. More like shots in the twilight. We know, for example, that right after xmas he is going to have a massive surge in what should be payed out, we also know the second gen should start REALLY paying out mid january, which are 2 huge markers.

If you don't want to see people speculating based on limited information, you probably shouldn't read this thread.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 22, 2014, 08:33:30 PM
I don't find the coupons to be all that odd, he has been gradually reducing the price of his Gen 1 since august. It's on a pretty consistent down trend in price as Chris is liquidating ALL of his Gen 1.

If you calculate profitability of the chips the trending is pretty spot on with the coupon/price reductions. Assuming he's legit, he is getting ready to retool for Gen 2.

1k6x - 5.31 / MH
1k6x - 4.68 / MH w/ referral

1k83 - 3.76 / MH w/ referral

15k0 - 2.622 / MH w/ referral

3k0 - 2.45 / MH w/ referral

BF/CM - 1.78 / MH

3k0 - 1.40 / MH No referral w/ coupon

I don't disagree it has been a complete cluster fuck the past few weeks. He seems to be working through the issues however.

The argument for "best week" to run has been thrown around during the past 3 multi's BF/CM, and a handful of other times. There is no basis for the argument.

You have no idea what multiplication is going to be so that's another assumption without evidence. You can hope and guess at best. "Evidence" would point to it being sub 1.25 by a large factor. Given the massive difficulty drops we are currently seeing it could be as low as 1.1 or none.



Edit - I've been speculating as much as anyone since before this thread even started. It was a discussion between marcello, myself, and a few others that got the thread started. I'm no stranger to the speculation and baseless crazy assumptions people make here  ;)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on December 22, 2014, 08:44:11 PM
If  we are going off of baseless speculation then I am pretty sure the the Invisible Hand that controls the US government and big bank cartels are the one suppressing the BTC/LTC prices.

Actually that doesnt sound very far fetched at all....



COME ON 1.35 MULTIPLIER!
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lay94 on December 22, 2014, 08:50:29 PM
If  we are going off of baseless speculation then I am pretty sure the the Invisible Hand that controls the US government and big bank cartels are the one suppressing the BTC/LTC prices.

Actually that doesnt sound very far fetched at all....



COME ON 1.35 MULTIPLIER!

There was a huge amount of BTC seized from SilkRoad, sold in closed auction to anonymous bidders.

I believe they are now dumping BTC, which pulls LTC down with it.

Also I believe $300 is a floor, that would be BTC cost for them.

Speculation, based on nothing, just observations ... :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kaladinStrom on December 22, 2014, 08:56:36 PM
I don't find the coupons to be all that odd, he has been gradually reducing the price of his Gen 1 since august. It's on a pretty consistent down trend in price as Chris is liquidating ALL of his Gen 1.

If you calculate profitability of the chips the trending is pretty spot on with the coupon/price reductions. Assuming he's legit, he is getting ready to retool for Gen 2.

1k6x - 5.31 / MH
1k6x - 4.68 / MH w/ referral

1k83 - 3.76 / MH w/ referral

15k0 - 2.622 / MH w/ referral

3k0 - 2.45 / MH w/ referral

BF/CM - 1.78 / MH

3k0 - 1.40 / MH No referral w/ coupon

I don't disagree it has been a complete cluster fuck the past few weeks. He seems to be working through the issues however.

The argument for "best week" to run has been thrown around during the past 3 multi's BF/CM, and a handful of other times. There is no basis for the argument.

You have no idea what multiplication is going to be so that's another assumption without evidence. You can hope and guess at best. "Evidence" would point to it being sub 1.25 by a large factor. Given the massive difficulty drops we are currently seeing it could be as low as 1.1 or none.



Edit - I've been speculating as much as anyone since before this thread even started. It was a discussion between marcello, myself, and a few others that got the thread started. I'm no stranger to the speculation and baseless crazy assumptions people make here  ;)

I am not trying to argue specific things as "Evidence" (of which there is basically none for anything), I was just saying that we are not as baseless as "monkey throwing shit at a dartboard"

What I find suspicious about the coupons, is the "Limited Use" that seems to consistently turn out to be unlimited usage, until a new product comes out that's simply cheaper than the last one even with the coupon. It smells of trying to push sales and create a purchase panic, when he can barely handle handling the number of customers he already has.

To me, (again, I am of the belief that this is not a scam) the coupon push seems like he needs to make sales to pay people and is the single thing that makes me think he might be using investments to pay previous investors. Infinitely cheaper products just seem unsustainable as well. Why is he trying to push all the qasic sales so much? Why not just sell them a the current price until they are gone? Why does it seem like he has to sell them *before* 2nd gen comes out? If the prices get lower, it seems unlikely that he will be making money on them vs the power costs.

As far as multiplications are concerned, they do seem to follow the difficulty, so right now it would be about 20% increase with the multiplication. Unfortunate timing for us on this multiplication and the last. Difficulty spiked right after the last one and is dropping right before this one.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 22, 2014, 09:19:28 PM
Edit: I'm under the impression that the equipment is online for some time prior to being sold to us. So it isn't necessarily infinitely cheaper so much as the equipment has made him more money therefore he can sell it at a lower price. That's why I talked about the consistent price trending down. It isn't like he came out with a 50% off coupon out of nowhere.


I understand where you are coming from but why not have unlimited use coupons on BF/CM?

There was insane competition for them, they were used up in under 10 seconds per coupon for a majority of the coupons.


He is pushing sales for a hopefully legitimate reason, he has a multi-million dollar bill with the foundry due for his first round of 2nd gen chips. I agree the payment issues are troublesome, it could be that he exhausted reserves paying the foundry which makes operational efficiency that much more important. Payout errors with near zero extra funds could be critical.


Regarding multiplication following difficulty, prior multiplications don't appear to be a reflection of difficulty, at least not directly. The formula could be more complicated including price as a component but I haven't delved into that too deeply.

Dec 24 -   52397    ??    +26%   Estimated based on next diff adjust -3.21

Nov 10 -   41502   1.25   +25%

Sep 20 -   33203   1.35   +81.2%

Aug 6 -    18319   1.5   +155%

June 22 - 7181   1.55   negligible%

May 8 -    7126   1.35   +62.8%

Mar 24 -   4377



Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kaladinStrom on December 22, 2014, 10:53:06 PM
Edit: I'm under the impression that the equipment is online for some time prior to being sold to us. So it isn't necessarily infinitely cheaper so much as the equipment has made him more money therefore he can sell it at a lower price. That's why I talked about the consistent price trending down. It isn't like he came out with a 50% off coupon out of nowhere.


I understand where you are coming from but why not have unlimited use coupons on BF/CM?

There was insane competition for them, they were used up in under 10 seconds per coupon for a majority of the coupons.


He is pushing sales for a hopefully legitimate reason, he has a multi-million dollar bill with the foundry due for his first round of 2nd gen chips. I agree the payment issues are troublesome, it could be that he exhausted reserves paying the foundry which makes operational efficiency that much more important. Payout errors with near zero extra funds could be critical.


Regarding multiplication following difficulty, prior multiplications don't appear to be a reflection of difficulty, at least not directly. The formula could be more complicated including price as a component but I haven't delved into that too deeply.

Dec 24 -   52397    ??    +26%   Estimated based on next diff adjust -3.21

Nov 10 -   41502   1.25   +25%

Sep 20 -   33203   1.35   +81.2%

Aug 6 -    18319   1.5   +155%

June 22 - 7181   1.55   negligible%

May 8 -    7126   1.35   +62.8%

Mar 24 -   4377

They were used up way to quickly, I actually got screwed out of a few purchases. I was on it, auto-refresh in one window with a cart full of exactly what I wanted in another. As soon as a coupon I wanted went up I had it applied and checked out within a 2 - 3 seconds (75% off coupon). Then, of course, the site crashed, and the coupon said it wasn't applied after that. There went 6k in savings I would have had.

"No matter" I said to myself, "another coupon will come up".

Sure enough another one does and I make it through the whole checkout process right to the point where I need to pay bitcoins. Then I noticed the amount of bitcoins I was supposed to pay was too high. I went back and checked, and the bitcoin system didn't apply the coupon even though the checkout page said it was applied. (this happened 2 more times).

Needless to say I was pretty infuriated. I wonder if anyone actually got the use out of the coupons or if they bugged out for everyone and it counted as uses.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on December 22, 2014, 10:55:04 PM
I got 2 coupons, not very good ones, but they saved me a few dollars.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 22, 2014, 11:49:49 PM

They were used up way to quickly, I actually got screwed out of a few purchases. I was on it, auto-refresh in one window with a cart full of exactly what I wanted in another. As soon as a coupon I wanted went up I had it applied and checked out within a 2 - 3 seconds (75% off coupon). Then, of course, the site crashed, and the coupon said it wasn't applied after that. There went 6k in savings I would have had.

"No matter" I said to myself, "another coupon will come up".

Sure enough another one does and I make it through the whole checkout process right to the point where I need to pay bitcoins. Then I noticed the amount of bitcoins I was supposed to pay was too high. I went back and checked, and the bitcoin system didn't apply the coupon even though the checkout page said it was applied. (this happened 2 more times).

Needless to say I was pretty infuriated. I wonder if anyone actually got the use out of the coupons or if they bugged out for everyone and it counted as uses.

I was able to get 5, I sat at the comp for a good 10 hours to get them on CM. Had a separate computer running page alarm with an obnoxious audible alarm.

Soon as it dinged, I applied it and checked out.

People taking them and then trying to sell them was ridiculous and obnoxious.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kaladinStrom on December 22, 2014, 11:54:29 PM

They were used up way to quickly, I actually got screwed out of a few purchases. I was on it, auto-refresh in one window with a cart full of exactly what I wanted in another. As soon as a coupon I wanted went up I had it applied and checked out within a 2 - 3 seconds (75% off coupon). Then, of course, the site crashed, and the coupon said it wasn't applied after that. There went 6k in savings I would have had.

"No matter" I said to myself, "another coupon will come up".

Sure enough another one does and I make it through the whole checkout process right to the point where I need to pay bitcoins. Then I noticed the amount of bitcoins I was supposed to pay was too high. I went back and checked, and the bitcoin system didn't apply the coupon even though the checkout page said it was applied. (this happened 2 more times).

Needless to say I was pretty infuriated. I wonder if anyone actually got the use out of the coupons or if they bugged out for everyone and it counted as uses.

I was able to get 5, I sat at the comp for a good 10 hours to get them on CM. Had a separate computer running page alarm with an obnoxious audible alarm.

Soon as it dinged, I applied it and checked out.

People taking them and then trying to sell them was ridiculous and obnoxious.
I was as well, I ended up getting one of the coupons, it was ok, don't remember which one anymore. But I felt cheated by not getting the 75% off one and not getting the 90% off dual mod one. Water under the bridge though, sorry for taking the thread off topic!
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sukarti on December 22, 2014, 11:58:33 PM

I was able to get 5, I sat at the comp for a good 10 hours to get them on CM. Had a separate computer running page alarm with an obnoxious audible alarm.

Soon as it dinged, I applied it and checked out.

People taking them and then trying to sell them was ridiculous and obnoxious.
I was as well, I ended up getting one of the coupons, it was ok, don't remember which one anymore. But I felt cheated by not getting the 75% off one and not getting the 90% off dual mod one. Water under the bridge though, sorry for taking the thread off topic!

No worries, this thread has been surprisingly quiet. Most the FUD is spread elsewhere ironically  ;)

I only used/got the flat % off coupons, the 28-31%.

I wasn't really interested in the mods at the time, too much uncertainty given Gen 2, VTC algo change, and DRK price drops.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on December 23, 2014, 12:00:08 AM
I wish I would have had enough money to get 5 or 6 40k packs with the 90% coupon..... :'(
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: boy2k on December 25, 2014, 08:48:28 AM
I wish I would have had enough money to get 5 or 6 40k packs with the 90% coupon..... :'(

the 90% was a one shot wonder heh but yeah would've been nice.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kitano on December 27, 2014, 11:40:26 AM
Quote from: Chris/Beekeper
Database alteration

It was found that unauthorised modifications were performed on old servers database. Modifications were performed in such manner to make them undistinguishable from legitimate operations.
Alterations are present in recent database backups too.

In order analyse and clean the database, initiate procedures to identify the sources of alterations and to migrate service from weekly payouts to balance per user and pay on demand, payout, multiplication or other operations will be delayed for a week.

No support via e-mail will be available before analysys is finished.
A support form to report missing payouts shares or orders will be available tomorrow.
Why the sales are still open?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on December 28, 2014, 08:29:50 PM
kitano banned for 3 days
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Kim Jong-un on December 28, 2014, 09:07:20 PM
kitano banned for 3 days

Hey Sy, what did Kitano do to get banned?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Jayke on December 28, 2014, 09:12:25 PM
kitano banned for 3 days

Hey Sy, what did Kitano do to get banned?

Ha, I am watching The Interview right now thats funny how you name has popped up.

Oh and he was banned for constant spam no doubt, go check his past posts. All he is doing is adding to the fire, causing panic for no reason when he knows no more than anybody else, what he is saying is not factual in any way shape or form.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: AizenSou on December 28, 2014, 09:12:32 PM
kitano banned for 3 days

Hey Sy, what did Kitano do to get banned?

Look at his post history. Spamming FUD with the same content at > 5 threads.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: TheMage on December 28, 2014, 09:14:46 PM
kitano banned for 3 days

Hey Sy, what did Kitano do to get banned?


Posting constructive posts, whether they are positive or negative are ok. Posting literally the same thing multiple times in multiple topics is trolling and spamming.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Kim Jong-un on December 28, 2014, 09:17:56 PM
Roger that.  He's' wound up.   I'll talk to him
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Kim Jong-un on December 28, 2014, 09:31:13 PM

Ha, I am watching The Interview right now thats funny how you name has popped up.

Oh and he was banned for constant spam no doubt, go check his past posts. All he is doing is adding to the fire, causing panic for no reason when he knows no more than anybody else, what he is saying is not factual in any way shape or form.
[/quote]

No relation.  I picked him b/c he's an idiot, and you can do a lot with his character and behaviors.  Perhaps even hack Sony and LTCGear 
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: TheMage on December 29, 2014, 02:55:36 AM

Ha, I am watching The Interview right now thats funny how you name has popped up.

Oh and he was banned for constant spam no doubt, go check his past posts. All he is doing is adding to the fire, causing panic for no reason when he knows no more than anybody else, what he is saying is not factual in any way shape or form.

No relation.  I picked him b/c he's an idiot, and you can do a lot with his character and behaviors.  Perhaps even hack Sony and LTCGear
[/quote]


What if he hacked ltcgear solely because of you? You should be ashamed of yourself!  ;)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] Weekly payout questions, panics and rants
Post by: Vertje on December 29, 2014, 10:32:21 AM
It is good to see that Chris is updating his website etc. But it is rather strange that it is still possible to buy shares! Even the coupon code is still working...

I personally believe that Chris and Ltcgear are legit and that the troubles are real, but some transparent communication could ease my mind.

*FUD modus on  ::)

Just a theory that crossed my mind:
- Chris is in fact mining
- Chris is a skilled FPGA designer who produced efficient mining hardware
- Chris required lots of money to buy/expand his farm-hardware
- Chris sales ltcgear shares in order to get the funds
- Chris pays high dividends (ROI in 6weeks ) in order to attract many customers  (Ponzi like payout construction)
- Chris cancels the payouts due “technical” problems with the website
- Chris keeps the remaining money to expand this farm and keeps mining for himself alone  ;)

* FUD modus off

Again; just a theory, feel free to shoot holes in it. In fact, I’m even thankfully if you do because I hope it is not true at all.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Kim Jong-un on December 29, 2014, 05:27:17 PM
Well then I would feel like an ass
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Skatter on January 04, 2015, 06:16:14 AM
So what dates and requirements are set in for officially calling this LTCgear mining a Ponzi?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: DisaBit on January 04, 2015, 09:19:22 AM
So what dates and requirements are set in for officially calling this LTCgear mining a Ponzi?

Monday 5 January 2015, I guess?  ???
...according to the website...
Farm Payments
As a reminder, the weekly payments were moved to balance per user and pay on demand, which will become live Monday, Dec 5.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kmg on January 04, 2015, 11:33:40 AM
I do not know what will happen tomorrow or in the following weeks, so this is highly speculative question.

If it goes bust, are affiliates sharing liability?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Noogens on January 04, 2015, 11:45:07 AM
If it goes bust, are affiliates sharing liability?

Great idea actually :)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Kim Jong-un on January 04, 2015, 02:22:11 PM
I do not know what will happen tomorrow or in the following weeks, so this is highly speculative question.

If it goes bust, are affiliates sharing liability?

Personally, I've moved beyond speculation and am now assuming that LTCGear is gone.  There is just too many signs:  no transparency, no video, delays, little communication.  I would doubt at this point that he can fill the financial hole he has dug with all these missing payments
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kitano on January 04, 2015, 08:50:53 PM
Personally, I've moved beyond speculation and am now assuming that LTCGear is gone.  There is just too many signs:  no transparency, no video, delays, little communication.  I would doubt at this point that he can fill the financial hole he has dug with all these missing payments
+1
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Jayke on January 04, 2015, 08:53:46 PM
I do not know what will happen tomorrow or in the following weeks, so this is highly speculative question.

If it goes bust, are affiliates sharing liability?

Personally, I've moved beyond speculation and am now assuming that LTCGear is gone.  There is just too many signs:  no transparency, no video, delays, little communication.  I would doubt at this point that he can fill the financial hole he has dug with all these missing payments

Yep, if the money is there why bother waiting and delaying. Personally I would want to get the payments sent out so I can count my own profits, doubt he even has the amount to pay everybodys debts, must be running into the millions?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Lowky on January 04, 2015, 10:06:22 PM
I do not know what will happen tomorrow or in the following weeks, so this is highly speculative question.

If it goes bust, are affiliates sharing liability?

Personally, I've moved beyond speculation and am now assuming that LTCGear is gone.  There is just too many signs:  no transparency, no video, delays, little communication.  I would doubt at this point that he can fill the financial hole he has dug with all these missing payments
+1
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: tradez on January 04, 2015, 11:40:19 PM
As a reminder, the weekly payments were moved to balance per user and pay on demand, which will become live Monday, Dec 5.[/i]

Yeah read it again, it says DEC 5, not JAN 5, that mean 1 year to go.. LoL

And if it's mistake why nobody gives a sh*t to fixing it?

And if seriously? Of course GEAR is finished, nobody supporting a site anymore, No SSL, No 2 FA, nothing is going on

for weeks already. Dreamers just keep smoking.. Well, good luck..
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Kim Jong-un on January 04, 2015, 11:48:54 PM
I found something interesting.  Using a Romanian proxy,  I accessed the public  registration of BITCAGE TECH SRL.  This data is from the 2003 filings, but it certainly doesn't seem consistent with the type of company I had imagined they were.  Perhaps there is a simple explanation.  However, you should first know that the Romanian leu is worth about 1/4 of the USD.  That means that the total assets of this company is listed as 94,407 RON or $25,272.35 USD.  It seems hard to believe that with all the chips, contracts and mining going on, that the company has only $25k USD in assets.  If someone understands accounting better than I do, feel free to chime in, but I thought it was something to bring forward.

BITCAGE TECH SRL

Street Address:
Str. PANDURI 17

Location:
Bucharest


Phone:
0724264464

Unique identifier:
31906463

Nr. Trade Register:
J40 / 7993/2013

Company Status:
REGISTERED dated 21 June 2013

Capital subscribed and paid:
200 RON

Turnover:
30,187 RON

Net profit:
15,524 RON

Employees
0
Type of Activity:
Activities to develop custom software (software-oriented client)

Net loss:
0 RON

Total Debt:
79,087 RON


Total expenditure:
13,837 RON

Total assets:
404 RON


TOTAL Current assets:
94,407 RON


Inventory:
58,386 RON

Cash / cash and banks:
20.468 RON

Accounts Payable:
15,553 RON

Capital:
15,724 RON

Heritage Administration:
0 RON

Heritage public:
0 RON

Provisions for risks and charges:
0 RON

Url:
http://www.vrajitorul.eu/firma/31906463/bitcage-tech-srl
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: wiggl3r on January 04, 2015, 11:52:01 PM
Thats the data from 2003 you say? Doesnt exactly seem relavent in the year 2015...
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: gentacomp on January 04, 2015, 11:55:33 PM
I found something interesting.  Using a Romanian proxy,  I accessed the public  registration of BITCAGE TECH SRL.  This data is from the 2003 filings, but it certainly doesn't seem consistent with the type of company I had imagined they were.  Perhaps there is a simple explanation.  However, you should first know that the Romanian leu is worth about 1/4 of the USD.  That means that the total assets of this company is listed as 94,407 RON or $25,272.35 USD.  It seems hard to believe that with all the chips, contracts and mining going on, that the company has only $25k USD in assets.  If someone understands accounting better than I do, feel free to chime in, but I thought it was something to bring forward.


Then he is very awesome, doing millions business with just 25k usd :D
Anyway Cryptos wouldnt leave any traces right ?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: kingpedro on January 04, 2015, 11:56:22 PM
Thats the data from 2003 you say? Doesnt exactly seem relavent in the year 2015...

I think he means 2013, its the date the company was registered.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: bclcjunkie on January 05, 2015, 12:03:36 AM
The reason i doubt legitimacy of ltcgear are just these: all those BF coupons, sales still continue and never ending "propergoodbye" coupon.. whoever came up with that last coupon idea had a sense of humor.. everyone here assumes ltcgear is a one man operation when it could've also been a collaborative effort including some sock puppets that keep defending him. we'll see how this plays out in the end.
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: deathlord on January 05, 2015, 07:20:05 AM
I found something interesting.  Using a Romanian proxy,  I accessed the public  registration of BITCAGE TECH SRL.  This data is from the 2003 filings, but it certainly doesn't seem consistent with the type of company I had imagined they were.  Perhaps there is a simple explanation.  However, you should first know that the Romanian leu is worth about 1/4 of the USD.  That means that the total assets of this company is listed as 94,407 RON or $25,272.35 USD.  It seems hard to believe that with all the chips, contracts and mining going on, that the company has only $25k USD in assets.  If someone understands accounting better than I do, feel free to chime in, but I thought it was something to bring forward.


Then he is very awesome, doing millions business with just 25k usd :D
Anyway Cryptos wouldnt leave any traces right ?
The registered capital has nothing to do with the funds that are actually available.

Besides, can anyone actually confirm that this is the corporate identity behind LTCGear? Or was this just one of Chris' previous businesses?
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Sy on January 05, 2015, 07:22:54 AM
http://www.itrademarket.com/ltcgear/profile/bitcage-tech.htm

Homepage: ltcgear.com
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: interstaller on January 05, 2015, 07:48:24 AM
The reason i doubt legitimacy of ltcgear are just these: all those BF coupons, sales still continue and never ending "propergoodbye" coupon.. whoever came up with that last coupon idea had a sense of humor.. everyone here assumes ltcgear is a one man operation when it could've also been a collaborative effort including some sock puppets that keep defending him. we'll see how this plays out in the end.

Yes, I suspect "Chris" as we know him doesn't even exist. Ltcgear is probably run by a group of guys who are creating sockpuppet accounts as necessary and defend ltcgear with so much vigor on the main thread. Having no actual "Chris" really is a perfect part of the scam. The inevitable man hunt will lead nowhere ;)
Title: Re: [LTCGear] legit discussion
Post by: Transit Coin on January 05, 2015, 07:55:22 AM
The reason i doubt legitimacy of ltcgear are just these: all those BF coupons, sales still continue and never ending "propergoodbye" coupon.. whoever came up with that last coupon idea had a sense of humor.. everyone here assumes ltcgear is a one man operation when it could've also been a collaborative effort including some sock puppets that keep defending him. we'll see how this plays out in the end.

Yes, I suspect "Chris" as we know him doesn't even exist. Ltcgear is probably run by a group of guys who are creating sockpuppet accounts as necessary and defend ltcgear with so much vigor on the main thread. Having no actual "Chris" really is a perfect part of the scam. The inevitable man hunt will lead nowhere ;)

Eve